Sager 8887 and Linux

[taopunk]

Greets,

Been scoping out Sager 8887 as a potential purchase in the very near future (I've narrowed it down to Apple 17-inch PowerBook or Sager 8887). Got a few questions for current owners of Sager 8887 who use Linux on a daily basis (I am a seasoned Linux user running Gentoo Linux + vanilla-sources 2.4.20, by the way):

1. Has anyone gotten IDE DMA to work (and how)? What IDE chipeset does 8887 use?
2. PCMCIA support (and how)?
3. Anyone gotten internal miniPCI wireless network card to work (and how)?
4. Has anyone tried XFree86 4.3.0 native-support for Radeon Mobile 9000? How is the performance? How is the performance at 1600x1200x24? Anyone got some glxgears numbers at the above mentioned resolution/depth? I don't have much experience with ATI Radeon chipset. What kernel options should I enable in kernel config pre XFree86 -configure?
5. Is ACPI support adequate (since the P4 chips will obviously run very hot, and having the fan running is a good thing)
6. What audio chipset is used? How mature is ALSA support for the chipset?
7. Anyone gotten the MP3 player to work under Linux (and How, I know SD memory support isn't spectacular due to proprietary nature)? How good is the MP3 player?
8. Anyone broken neck/back/shoulder travelling with this beast?

Since this will be a large chunck of money I'll be putting down, I want to make sure my decision is backed by good info.

Thanks in advance.

---
taopunk

[laclasse]

taopunk,

Check all the threads, i believe your questions are all answered. Let me know if you need more precision.

:cheers:

[taopunk]

Well, i searched 8887 + <insert subject matter>. I don't think most of the replies specifically addressed either the 8887 or the questions directly (or provided enough detail) :(

In any case, this thread can serve as a concentrated source of info for those Linux users who are interested in specifically the 8887
:dude:

[laclasse]

I believe the 8886/8887 and the 5660 are using the same Intel845E Brookdale Chipset connected to the same ICH3M Southbridge. I believe the PCMCIA controller is the same too, so is firewire, usb 2.0, sound and video ( apart for the 128 Megs). So here are some answers to help you, based on my 5660.

1) Yes IDE DMA works but needs to be forced through hdparm. I use : hdparm -c1d1X69u1k1 /dev/hda to have ata100 and DMA transfers.
hda: 78140160 sectors (40008 MB) w/2048KiB Cache, CHS=4864/255/63, UDMA(100)

2) PCMCIA does work using the latest kernel drivers, but not 2.4.20. You need to patch your kernel sources with 2.4.21-pre4 or 5 patch:
Linux Kernel Card Services 3.1.22
options: [pci] [cardbus] [pm]
PCI: Enabling device 02:07.0 (0000 -> 0002)
Yenta IRQ list 0000, PCI irq5
Socket status: 30000006
cs: IO port probe 0x0c00-0x0cff: clean.
cs: IO port probe 0x0800-0x08ff: clean.
cs: IO port probe 0x0100-0x04ff: excluding 0x378-0x387 0x4d0-0x4d7
cs: IO port probe 0x0a00-0x0aff: clean.

3) Dunno that one ;)
4) Yes, answered in previous threads. I run 4.3.0 with latest radeons DRI modules and it is great. 10 fps or so lower than the proprietary ones.
Umm, i am having troubles understanding " What kernel options should I enable in kernel config pre XFree86 -configure?" . You are confused between the configuration of X and the kernel options for X. You should compile a kernel as so :
AGP : M module
DRI XFree Drivers ( 4.1.x or newer ) Y In
Radeon DRI M module

The proprietary drivers can work with or without AGP as they are able, as nvidia ones, to supply their own AGP module, or use the stock kernel one. So, having AGP module, will make sure you can run both drivers ;)

5) ACPI is adequate as stated in previous threads, and i can control the throttling, state, temperature etc. You need to apply the latest acpi patches on your kernel ( get them from sourceforge). There is a acpi howto on that page which teaches you the controls. I can push the throttle to 87 % and play Mame for 2.5 hours with one battery, nothin else running ;)

6) Sound: the Chipset used is a 5.1 intel 8x0 coupled with a Avance Logic ALC200/200P rev0, Silicon Laboratory Si3036 chip. Alsa works like a dream, even the digital/spdif out. I use the latest alsa, 0.9rc7.

7) Dunno
8) Dunno


I am getting right now the main difference for the internals between the 8886/8887 and the 5660. As stated i think more accessories and features are a change, i believe the chipset are identical. As soon as i get confirmation, will let you know. Hope that helps.

[chiphart]

One issue related to your debate, of course, is whether you prefer Linux or OSX. While I find the Mac hardware to be generally superb, even at the price, I much prefer Linux to OSX, if only for it's flexbility and configurability. OSX is nice and, if it runs the apps you want the way you want, is definitely the way to go...but, if you're a tweaker or you like options -> Linux!

[taopunk]

chiphart

I am comfortable working with either OS X and Linux. I appreciate productivity with OS X. I appreciate flexibility with Linux.

As far as Apple hardware vs. PC hardware, I don't believe the components differ in quality. Having said that, since Apple control exactly what goes into every model and how everything fits together, Macs are generally better integrated in terms of hardware and hardware/software interaction (all that in a "sexy" package). Unfortunately, this controlled integration (Apple's hardware business bottom line) also means a lack of freedom with it comes to running OS X on anything else other than hardware from Apple.

But, Linux does run (very well) on Apple machines. This could potentially be the argument for purchasing something like a new PowerBook vs. a new Sager. However, currently (in my humble opinion):
1. for my normal day to day operations (compiles, compiles, and more compiles), tasks run much faster on top of the line x86 hardware running Linux vs top of the line Apples running Linux
2. since significantly fewer developers are working on Linux/ppc than Linux/x86, hardware support comes a bit slower (even though the there is less variation on hardware components on Macs); the refusal of component vendors to release even proprietary Linux kernel modules for their own hardware integrated in Macs certainly doesn't help (at least on x86 it is possible to run something like the nVIDIA x86 linux driver for performance, for example - there are many others)

PowerBook 17-in will weigh less than 7lbs. Sager 8887 will weigh 12+ lbs....

Sigh...

[taopunk]

laclasse

Thanks for the re-info :)

Any idea why IDE DMA modes have to be forced?

As far as kernel options for X, you answered my question (I was interested in specifically: agpgart, DRI, etc. settings - you can tell I've been using proprietary kernel modules for a while now).

[chiphart]

As far as Apple hardware vs. PC hardware, I don't believe the components differ in quality.

Perhaps not, but there's surely a difference in aesthetic and practical departments. There's no comparing a nice PowerBook to my 5660 when you look at things like size and weight. [Note: I fully realize that Apple has an advantage by limiting it's flexibility.] And, even though some people think otherwise, my daily opportunities to put my (new) UXGA against the PowerBook screens tells me the Apple people aren't missing much.

Having said that, since Apple control exactly what goes into every model and how everything fits together, Macs are generally better integrated in terms of hardware and hardware/software interaction (all that in a "sexy" package).

No question. The irony is that Apple is, in many ways, much more fascist than Microsoft/Dell/IBM. Have you read Neal Stephenson's "'Command Line" essay?


2. since significantly fewer developers are working on Linux/ppc than Linux/x86, hardware support comes a bit slower (even though the there is less variation on hardware components on Macs); the refusal of component vendors to release even proprietary Linux kernel modules for their own hardware integrated in Macs certainly doesn't help

I'm not sure I follow. For example, all this debate about "getting the right drivers for the M9" that we read here is a bit humbling when my PowerBooked associates all have the M9 drivers the moment they turn on their machines. Did you mean something else?

Ultimately, though, I think my point is still important: your OS use should probably drive this decision, no?

Either way - PowerBook, 8887 - you should be quite happy. Buy one of both and send me the one you don't like!

[laclasse]

Well, everyone will admit, they look damn good, these S.Jobs designed APPLE machines. But there is something to consider: Mac hardware is out. I mean, for the last 2/3 years we have seen MACs using same components as the PC ( Nvidia, ATI, WD IDE hdd ). Even the ports at the back of the mac are "regular". What happened ?
Where are all the proprietary appleTalk, modems, printer ports ?
Well, running Unix is good for OSX, but debauching the head of FreeBSD for it was not looked from a good eye by the open source community.

Let me share that experiment:
I took a G3 Powerbook from a friend, a 500 Mhz one, 256 ram, ati Rage mobility, 10 gig hdd. I installed OS X on it, but minimal, on UFS file system, not on HFS+ prop mac file system.

Then i installed fink ( a port of debian apt-get on OS X ), and after UNLOCKING (lol) the root account, opened a term, and:
% fink install gimp
Password: XXXXX
......
...Blah failed dep, i needed the Apple devellopper tools. Grabbed the CD, and install the Apple Unix Devel tools ( bash shell, headers etc ...). Then re do the operation. Well it eventually built, but with pain, lots of it, had to install X etc ....Took as well huge disk space. None of the applications shipped by apple were running on the UFS partition, as soon as reverted to HFS+, magic it is back again...
Off course this doesn't count, as the only thing i wanted to do was to see how much 'prop' has been put throught the original 'BSD4-4Lite' MicroKernel on which Mach kernel are based, and see if i could run 'FREE' unix on mac OS X. Obviously, not.

The real funny side of it, is that at first, when just launched, going to devellopers.apple.com was very discrete about Unix, the open source community knew that it was a BSD-Mach kernel used. So it looks like they were hiding the origin of FINALLY a Mac OS stable. OS 8 and 9 all versions were terrible, hardlocks, cold reboot at all times.
But now, with second Jaguar version, i see "Send other unix boxes to /dev/null", or i see UNIX, BSD, stability, multitasking, preemptivity, Mach and a lot of other buzz words on the same site. Thats funny.

taopunk:
Read the Sticky topic : Linux install guide kernel, i explain the IDE thingy in there. ;)

[taopunk]

laclasse,

You are right - your kernel is fast approaching Frankenstein-esque with all the patches you've applied :P

Do you follow Linux kernel dev? I wonder how close 2.4.21 is to a release?

Concerning OS X:

The Darwin kernel (the kernl that is the basis of OS X) is a hybrid 1. microkernel (based on venerable CM Mach) and 2. 4.4BSD design (with strong FreeBSD influence). So to say it is purely BSD in lineage is incorrect (as far as I know BSD kernels are of monolithic design - like Linux).

As far as HFS+ is concerned, my personal feeling is that is should be replaced by either one of many standard filesystems out in Linux/BSD land or one should be designed specifically for Darwin. HFS+ is not case-sensitive. It has caused many problems for those trying out UFS on OS X because some of Apple's software presumes HFS/HFS+. This is a Holy War topic on many OSX/Darwin forums/newsgroups/mailing lists.

Fink mostly works like a charm for me (it isn't as stable as, let's say, Debian's package system (on which it is based or FreeBSD's ports system, but hey it is a relatively new project running on a relatively new platform).

Yes, I agree Apple is facist in many ways (being a for-profit company, $ is the primary motivator). They're motivation for encouraging "Open Source" development of the Darwin kernel and various other projects has ulterior motive written all over. This is why I am glad Linux and the Free BSD's are around for sanity check. Having said that, I do enjoy the OS X interface (I am more than a little biased towards the NeXT interface variants, I'm a long time WindowMaker user). The new PPC Macs running OS X are a joy to interact and work with (right out of the box).

[laclasse]

Well, 2.4.21-pre5 patch is out, which means 2.4.21 will be eminent. I am currently waiting for it as i want to rebuild my kernel leaving the realteck NIC as a module. It has hardlocked me many times.....

[GrandMasterLee]

I wrote this quite some time ago:

http://digitalroadkill.net/Still_A_PC_User.txt


And my recent bout with trying to figure out which to buy, PC or MAC, brought me right back to the same dilemma as listed above. Of course, the link above did not take into account laptops specifically, but still applies well I think.

I've resolved to buy a MAC next year though, but only after I've bought a Sager 8887 which should arrive in the next 8 days. :)

[GrandMasterLee]

It's just got XP on it right now, soon to be Linux and XP. I was surprised to see how freaking,honking, enourmous this thing is. But it's damn worth it. :) Combined with my new archos MMJukebox, it's even better. Soon, We'll see just how well the PS2 looks on TV. :) Anyhow, so far it's been an absolute joy, even *if* it's running windows. I'll report what happens when I load RH 8.0-XFS on it.

[HoofHearted]

Got wireless working. At work now, so haven't tested it yet, but the MAC is a match.

I have an 8887 with mini-pci internal wireless card

Followed laclasse's install guide for the most part.

uname -r
2.4.21-pre5

.config (matches laclasses for the mostpart, I dont have zip drives or any pcmcia cards)
<SNIP>
CONFIG_HERMES=m
CONFIG_PCI_HERMES=m
</SNIP>

/etc/modules.conf
<SNIP>
alias eth1 orinoco_cs
</SNIP>

apt-get install wireless-tools

somewhere (maybe /etc/pcmcia/wireless.opts or /etc/networks/interface) is where I'll have to be

Please let me know any successes or failures in case I missed something.