Aloha!!
Just recieved my Tecra M3.
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Tecra M3-S212TD
Intel® Pentium® M Processor 730 [1.60GHz, 2MB L2 cache, 533MHz FSB], Microsoft® Windows XP Professional (SP2),
nVIDIA® GeForce™ Go 6600 TE 128M w/dedicated 128MB SDRAM
Bluetooth v1.2, 512MB PC4200 DDR2 533MHz SDRAM (512MBx1),
14.1" XGA display (1024x768),
60GB HDD (5400rpm),
DVD/CD-RW Multifunction drive,
Intel® PRO/Wireless 2200BG (802.11b/g),
Bluetooth v.1.2,
Lithium-ion Battery (6-cell, 4700mAh),
Microsoft Works™ Version 8.0,
1-Year Standard Limited Warranty,
Toshiba Executive Nylon Carrying Case
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I must say its really light and well constructed. I'll give it a run for a few days before I write a thorough review. However there are a few initial points that I thought that I should point out.
1- I'm not very happy with the screen. I dont know if this is standard for XGA 14.1 screens, but I thought the CONTRAST would be much better. There are no BLACKS what so ever, just dark greys. I've been working on a "Samsung Syncmaster LCD 151P Porsche" for the past 2.5 years, and there is a MAJOR difference in clarity and contrast. Although its OK..I just dont think this is a good screen for a TOP OF the Line TECRA laptop. Too bad. :(
2- When on AC, and on FULL POWER mode, the fan gets VERY VERY noisy. Its laughable, more like the FX 5800 fiasco if anyone remembers. And it gets BURNING hot, you simply CANT put it on your lap. It will LITERALLY BURN you in 10-15 minutes. You will also lose your manhood...cuz there are vents on the front too... :rolleyes:
3- Contrary to what other guys here felt concerning the touchpad buttons, I dont find them that annoying, though they are not GOOD by any means, just a little different. Any EL CHEAPO HP has better buttons.
4- I ordered a Geforce 6600 128MB, however I cant find any relevant information about it on the lappy. It always says: Geforce 6200 64MB/Geforce 6600 128MB EVERYWHERE!! In Dxdiag, in Device Manager, in Display Properties, in 3DMark system properties, but they ALL say the video memory is 128MB. What really is freaking me out that I got in 3Dmark 2001SE ONLY ~5000 points...what the f!@#..........I havent tried 3Dmark2003 or 2005. Where do u think the trouble is? AA and AF are off, I'm on AC and in full power??!! Could it be divers? How can I download latest drivers. Toshiba has NONE, and Nvidia says to get all ther Geforce GO drivers from Toshiba!?
I'll post some pics, and a thorough review will follow.
P.S. I paid around $1700 for my config, which is quiet reasonable, but there are guys who are going up with their specs all the way to ~2300, there's even someone who just reviewed the M3 who paid ~$3500. Thats a LOT of money to pay to get THIS WASHED OUT SCREEN, NOISY FAN and POOR TOUCHPAD BUTTONS :rolleyes:
IMO The TECRA line should be a little MORE REFINED!!
Fidget
04-28-2005, 11:14 PM
wow...im not liking these reviews of the m3 sounds alot worse than the preceeding m2 ever was. the screen issues may be a not so good screen but it could also be the result of its resolution, it can play some eye tricks on you at times, especially if your used to ultra high quality monitors. the heat and graphics card issues are ones i see as really important and disconcerting, since they need to be addressed right now by toshiba in my opinion. still the saving grace is that you got a decent price, might not be perfect but at least your price was pretty good.
looks like my recomendations are going to be shifting to other models in the tecra line, such as the a4 and s2 if this seems to be a persistant issue with quality.
Djembe
04-28-2005, 11:20 PM
you can download Nvidia drivers from laptopvideo2go.com. However, in your case, you might just want to take fidget's advice and get a different system, since it seems it's not up to your expectations.
oymd
04-29-2005, 10:20 AM
you can download Nvidia drivers from laptopvideo2go.com. However, in your case, you might just want to take fidget's advice and get a different system, since it seems it's not up to your expectations.
Well I dunno....I actually like the laptop, Especially the SIZE and WEIGHT. On Battery or when u dont use "FULL POWER" the fan is ok...and like I said...the buttons are not that of a deal. Its just the screen is so WASHED out...mmm I dont know... :scratch:
Anyone here on the forums can tell me how a GEFORCE 6600 128MB gets ONLY ~5000 in 3DMark 2001. BTW, IF U CHECK THE REVIEWS OF THE tecra m3 ON notebookreview,com U WILL SEE THE PICS SHOWING "powered by nvidia" AND NOT AN actual geforce go 6600 sticker!!! JUST LIKE MY LAPPY!!!
IS it possible that I've been suckered into believing this is a DEDICATED 6600 128MB, only that it USES SHARED MEMORY WITH THE SYSTEM JUST LIKE THE 6200TE??? :mad:
UPDATE: In 3DMark 2005: 1321
oymd
04-29-2005, 10:34 AM
Update: 3Dmark 2003: 3663
riffin-rich
04-30-2005, 02:41 PM
oymd, perhaps you're ID'ing a difference between the XGA and the UXGA (1400x1050) displays, but, I'd like to suggest you take a look at some settings. I'm presuming you have the same flexibility I do with my 1400x1050 display, which gives me the blackest of blacks and whitest of whites. I happened across a test screen which I can't seem to find right now but when I do, I'll let you know how to find it. Anyway, check the following:
Right-click on your desktop and click Properties.
Ensure your screen resolution is max'd ... and color quality is set to highest (32 bit?)
Then click "Advanced"
Under GeForce Go6200/6600... tab, ensure:
Single Display
Digital Flat Panel
Then click the button, GeForce Go6200/6600...
Play around, but of significance, look at the "color correction" tab ...
be sure the Digital Vibrance is all the way left (not right/off), and center the brightness, contrast and gamma. I have my image sharpening all the way left. Video overlay settings: center hue and saturation. Perhaps this will help.
P.S. While my fan is loud and system generates some heat, it's not nearly as bad as you're describing ... I'm wearing a pair of boxer shorts and I've had my M3 on my lap for 2 hours now (plugged-in). My left leg is a little warmer than my right leg, but not uncomfortable by any means. If your system is that hot with only a 1.6GHz system, I'd suggest you bring it back and try another one. I'm pushing 2.13GHz and full video and I sound cooler than you're running. I don't have front vents either (?).
I'm not defending Toshiba or the M3 ... it's exactly what I wanted and still no regrets after another week. I'm getting used to the stiffer buttons but I'd still prefer less tension.
Good luck / regards,
Rich
rinthos
04-30-2005, 06:30 PM
In regards to such a low 3dmark 2001 score (5000), the best argument i could come up with would be the documentation on Toshiba's Webpage regarding the graphic processor.
(note, you do have a 6600 TE TE = toshiba edition).
Toshiba published information on what that means on their webpage.
To get to that information:
www.toshiba.com
click on products and services.
click on Notebook Pcs
click on Technical Support
click on Downloads
Select the Tecra M3 system and click GO.
click on the downloads link (in the right frame that appears).
look for the below:
03-01-2005 User Guide/Addenda Addendum Addressing Graphics Specification Update for Tecra M3 (v1.0; 03-01-2005; 25K)
To quote that PDF file:
Updated Information
For Your Computer's Graphics Processor
The following information supersedes that which is
contained in the documentation that shipped with
your Tecra® M3 Series computer, and reflects the
most up-to-date information for your system.
Technology and processor
Graphics 64 Mb nVIDIA® GeForce™ Go 6200 or 128Mb nVIDIA®
GeForce™ Go 6600 256-bit graphics accelerator;
BitBLT hardware, Alpha-blending, Direct3D® and
OpenGL support*
*Graphics processor unit ("GPU") performance may vary
depending on product model, design configuration, applications,
power management settings and features utilized.
GPU performance is only optimized when operating in AC
power mode and may decrease considerably when operating
in battery power mode.
The graphics processor is optimized for *** this specific computer *** (hense the TE, Toshiba Edition)
model and *** GPU performance will be slower than the
standard GeForce™ Go 6200/6600. *** GPU performance is
only optimized at ambient temperatures between 5° C and
30° C (41° F to 86° F) .
PMA500133010
Now if you want a system with a Normal 6600, the Tecra S2 does -not- have a 6600 TE (it has a regular 6600).
Think that might answer the question. The 3dmark 2003 score you posted looks nice though :)
That all aside, question for you Tecra M3 owners.
Do you have any settings for Nvidia Powermizer under the advanced graphical settings tab? (i.e. can you adjust GPU performance or any other Nvidia powersaving techniques on the NVIDIA tab, or has toshiba disabled these features on this system?????)
Thanks.
---
oymd
04-30-2005, 07:52 PM
In regards to such a low 3dmark 2001 score (5000), the best argument i could come up with would be the documentation on Toshiba's Webpage regarding the graphic processor.
(note, you do have a 6600 TE TE = toshiba edition).
Toshiba published information on what that means on their webpage.
To get to that information:
www.toshiba.com
click on products and services.
click on Notebook Pcs
click on Technical Support
click on Downloads
Select the Tecra M3 system and click GO.
click on the downloads link (in the right frame that appears).
look for the below:
03-01-2005 User Guide/Addenda Addendum Addressing Graphics Specification Update for Tecra M3 (v1.0; 03-01-2005; 25K)
To quote that PDF file:
Updated Information
For Your Computer's Graphics Processor
The following information supersedes that which is
contained in the documentation that shipped with
your Tecra® M3 Series computer, and reflects the
most up-to-date information for your system.
Technology and processor
Graphics 64 Mb nVIDIA® GeForce™ Go 6200 or 128Mb nVIDIA®
GeForce™ Go 6600 256-bit graphics accelerator;
BitBLT hardware, Alpha-blending, Direct3D® and
OpenGL support*
*Graphics processor unit ("GPU") performance may vary
depending on product model, design configuration, applications,
power management settings and features utilized.
GPU performance is only optimized when operating in AC
power mode and may decrease considerably when operating
in battery power mode.
The graphics processor is optimized for *** this specific computer *** (hense the TE, Toshiba Edition)
model and *** GPU performance will be slower than the
standard GeForce™ Go 6200/6600. *** GPU performance is
only optimized at ambient temperatures between 5° C and
30° C (41° F to 86° F) .
PMA500133010
Now if you want a system with a Normal 6600, the Tecra S2 does -not- have a 6600 TE (it has a regular 6600).
Think that might answer the question. The 3dmark 2003 score you posted looks nice though :)
That all aside, question for you Tecra M3 owners.
Do you have any settings for Nvidia Powermizer under the advanced graphical settings tab? (i.e. can you adjust GPU performance or any other Nvidia powersaving techniques on the NVIDIA tab, or has toshiba disabled these features on this system?????)
Thanks.
---
To riffin-rich:
Its not THAT HOT, but gets uncomfortable on my laps...I'm getting to like the lappy day by day anyhows. The touchpad buttons is not an issue anymore, and I'm getting used to the screen...I did your settings...it helped....but I think I'm just SPOILED by my Samsung 151P LCD that I've been using for ~ 3 years. :)
Now ...for the LOVE of GOD...can SOMEONE tell me the DIFFERENCE between
Geforce Go 6600
&
Geforce Go 6600 TE
NVIDIA'S site states that TE is "TURBO EDITION" and is only provided through OEMs. In the 6200 TE 128MB, the chip has 32MB actual memory and has 96MB SHARED with SYSTEM MEMORY. It CLEARLY STATES THAT THIS IS NOT THE CASE WITH THE 6600 TE, and that it has 128MB DEDICATED MEMORY and is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT CHIP FROM THE 6200 TE actually a VERY ADVANCED DIRECT X 9 CHIP :confused:
SO Basically...Is anyone here informed enough to clarify this up. What are the specs and core and memory speeds on the 6200 and 6600 chips? and HOW MANY ARE THEY??
1-Geforce Go 6200
2-Geforce Go 6200 TE
3-Geforce Go 6600
4-Geforce Go 6600 TE
The DIFFERENCES, THEIR DIRECT X capabilities...SHADERS....etc, THEIR CORE SPEEDS, THEIR MEMORY SPEEDS???? :confused: :confused: :confused:
:confused: :confused:
BLOODY MARKETING TRICKS!!!!!
just like Radeon 9500pro, vs 9550, vs 9800 128 bit, vs 9800SE. :mad:
THANKS!!
oymd
04-30-2005, 08:11 PM
Adrian's Rojak Pot has a VERY good article comparing ALL THE MOBILE CHIPSETS and he only mentions the 6200 and the 6600:
As you can see, he lists ALL the properties, SO HOW DOES THE TECRA M3's 6600 TE 128MB compare to this 6600 which seems like a MONSTER...it has 11.2 GB/s GRAPHICS BANDWIDTH....I ACTUALLY THOUGHT THAT THIS IS THE VERY SAME CHIP I AM BUYING!!! :scratch:
ISNT IT THE SAME??
rinthos
04-30-2005, 08:47 PM
Quote:
---
Here are some updated Benchmarks ATER changing the Graphics settings to performance etc...
---
Benchmark scores look much better (remember this is a laptop/notebook, so those scores are -nice- for such a mobile/small system).
In regards to the performance mode though, was that the Nvidia Powermizer option? Or some other option?
In regards to the Nvidia Graphic offerings, here they are in a nutshell.
Geforce Go 6200 = 100% dedicated v-ram.
Geforce Go 6200 TC = Turbo Cache. = has a small amount of dedicated v-ram, and it -also- allocates some system ram for video.
Geforce Go 6200 TE = Toshiba Edition = dedicated v-ram, but gpu is clocked approx. 25% slower than the normal Geforce Go 6200. Also, the TE gpus use additional thermal settings to 'slow down' the Gpu when the temperature reaches certain points. This is to maintain cooler operating environments.
Thus in a nutshell, TE = a slower version of the 6200. TC = uses dedicated + shared v-ram.
Geforce Go 6600 = 100% dedicated v-ram.
Geforce Go 6600TC = Does not exist.
Geforce Go 6600TE = Toshiba Edition = dedicated v-ram but gpu is clocked approx 25% slower than the normal Geforce Go 6600 offerings in order to maintain cooler temps and lower power usage. Also, the TE gpus use additional thermal settings to 'slow down' the Gpu when the temperature reaches certain trip-points (set in the video-bios).
so the tecra M3 definately has 100% dedicated v-ram, however it runs slower by default, and will slow down further when thermal environments reach pre-set temperatures (the pdf file shown above lists the ambient temps).
So conclusion:
TE = Toshiba Edition (Slower Edition)
TC = Turbo Cache (shared v-ram + dedicated v-ram are both used)
oh yeah and Ultra = Ultra (faster edition).
If no designation is present, then consider it "Normal Edition". lol :)
Hope this clears things up for you. Also, if you have Powermizer (GPU power settings for the graphic chip), could you post a screenshot showing which options it lets you set? (either that or list them if possible) ?
I.e. I'm curious if there are separate settings for Battery and AC, and if you have 2 or 3 options (i.e. slow, medium, fast).
Please let me know, and I hope the info above helps.
---
oymd
05-01-2005, 04:06 AM
Quote:
---
Here are some updated Benchmarks ATER changing the Graphics settings to performance etc...
---
Benchmark scores look much better (remember this is a laptop/notebook, so those scores are -nice- for such a mobile/small system).
In regards to the performance mode though, was that the Nvidia Powermizer option? Or some other option?
In regards to the Nvidia Graphic offerings, here they are in a nutshell.
Geforce Go 6200 = 100% dedicated v-ram.
Geforce Go 6200 TC = Turbo Cache. = has a small amount of dedicated v-ram, and it -also- allocates some system ram for video.
Geforce Go 6200 TE = Toshiba Edition = dedicated v-ram, but gpu is clocked approx. 25% slower than the normal Geforce Go 6200. Also, the TE gpus use additional thermal settings to 'slow down' the Gpu when the temperature reaches certain points. This is to maintain cooler operating environments.
Thus in a nutshell, TE = a slower version of the 6200. TC = uses dedicated + shared v-ram.
Geforce Go 6600 = 100% dedicated v-ram.
Geforce Go 6600TC = Does not exist.
Geforce Go 6600TE = Toshiba Edition = dedicated v-ram but gpu is clocked approx 25% slower than the normal Geforce Go 6600 offerings in order to maintain cooler temps and lower power usage. Also, the TE gpus use additional thermal settings to 'slow down' the Gpu when the temperature reaches certain trip-points (set in the video-bios).
so the tecra M3 definately has 100% dedicated v-ram, however it runs slower by default, and will slow down further when thermal environments reach pre-set temperatures (the pdf file shown above lists the ambient temps).
So conclusion:
TE = Toshiba Edition (Slower Edition)
TC = Turbo Cache (shared v-ram + dedicated v-ram are both used)
oh yeah and Ultra = Ultra (faster edition).
If no designation is present, then consider it "Normal Edition". lol :)
Hope this clears things up for you. Also, if you have Powermizer (GPU power settings for the graphic chip), could you post a screenshot showing which options it lets you set? (either that or list them if possible) ?
I.e. I'm curious if there are separate settings for Battery and AC, and if you have 2 or 3 options (i.e. slow, medium, fast).
Please let me know, and I hope the info above helps.
---
Thanks man....
I checked in SYSTEM PROPERTIES in 3DMark 2005...it turns out that our 6600 TE is CLOCKED AT:
Core: 225MHz versus 375MHz on a regular 6600
Memory: 200 Mhx versus 300MHz on a regular 6600
So from what your saying...they are EXACTLY THE SAME CHIPS, just with LOWER CLOCK SPPEDS...ie...if by some crazy means I overclock it using POWERSTRIP to its STOCK SPEEDS OF 375/300 MHZ...it will work.... :confused:
I know...I know...thats an Impossible OVERCLOCK....but if they are the SAME CHIPS...then 375/300 are the ACTUAL STOCK SPEEDS and Toshiba has UNDERCLOCKED the 6600 TE....and I am just CLOCKING IT BACK TO STOCK SPEEDS :scratch:
Guess if I do that ...the laptop will MELT!!!!
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Yeah the NUIMBERS on the BENCHMARKS look good....
Here are the pics of the settings..
oymd
05-01-2005, 04:41 AM
Here are the Different settings before I run the benchies...
Wish I knew what they ALL mean. I've never used Nvidia before....and some are not understandable...like...LOD....Mimap.....Clamp...etc....
I guess i only understand the part about AA and Af...and Trilnear optimisation.... :eek:
rinthos
05-01-2005, 12:38 PM
Quote:
---
I checked in SYSTEM PROPERTIES in 3DMark 2005...it turns out that our 6600 TE is CLOCKED AT:
Core: 225MHz versus 375MHz on a regular 6600
Memory: 200 Mhx versus 300MHz on a regular 6600
So from what your saying...they are EXACTLY THE SAME CHIPS, just with LOWER CLOCK SPPEDS...ie...if by some crazy means I overclock it using POWERSTRIP to its STOCK SPEEDS OF 375/300 MHZ...it will work....
I know...I know...thats an Impossible OVERCLOCK....but if they are the SAME CHIPS...then 375/300 are the ACTUAL STOCK SPEEDS and Toshiba has UNDERCLOCKED the 6600 TE....and I am just CLOCKING IT BACK TO STOCK SPEEDS
Guess if I do that ...the laptop will MELT!!!!
---
Well first just an overview of "stock speeds".
As far as I have seen, Nvidia has offered the 6600 Go (normal) at speeds ranging from 275mhz to 375mhz. It is up to the notebook manufacturer to determine which clock speed to set it at.
Most are picking 275 to 333mhz (since it's less power consumption, and less heat, thus easier to design around).
But yeah, the TE (toshiba edition) is pretty much underclocked, but 1 other thing is the thermal trip-point option.
Thus you could overclock, but would need to find a way to keep the gpu much cooler (which would be very difficult to do given the space-constraints inside the system case chasis :( ).
Remember, 'stock speeds' for graphic cards (or gpus to be more specific), are set with "stock air-flow and stock cooling options". That said, if you could acquire the heatsink assembly for a 'normal' 6600, and ensure that it would receive adequate airflow, you would likely be able to push your chip up to 'stock speeds'.
However, airflow is out, and using a better heatsink+heatpipe would be difficult due to room constraints.
Finally, the TE versions are likely not tested at higher speeds, which means that they could (in theory) be lower quality chips (but the -same- design and same features).
If you are into overclocking, I would say try 250mhz for the gpu, and 215mhz for the v-ram.
NOTE: I personally do -not- recommend overclocking laptops/notebooks, but if you are planning on doing so, I say 250mhz gpu core as a theoretical max, only because of thermal limitations.
Once again thanks for the pictures. Exactly what I was looking for! :)
Oh and btw, Ati does the same thing with their Mobile Gpus. They released review samples of the Radeon Mobility 9600 at 350Mhz, and faster for the PRO version.
About 4 months after it's release, they changed it so 333Mhz would be "Pro" because notebook manufacturers did -not- like the heat or powerconsumption of the gpu at 350mhz, so none really adopted it.
Funny as it may be, the Hp/Compaq Nc6000 has a radeon 9600 mobility clocked at 250mhz. And sure enough, there is no way to tell that it's clocked that low. (i.e. No TE or in this case HP-E).
At least with the 6600, they are nice enough to put a "TE", so we can
at least realize that there's a spec difference.
Anyway, that said, For a 225mhz gpu, the scores you're posted are awesome!
They are up there with the -desktop- Radeon 9500 and -desktop- Geforce 5600 cards. And for a notebook as small as the M3, that's nice to know it can perform.
If you're wanted the better performance and want to stick with Toshiba, the Tecra S2 offers the normal 6600 (my guess would be clocked anywhere from 275 to 300).
from what I've seen it's not -that- much larger (15" screen vs. 14, and approx 1-2 pounds more).
But overall, it looks like the Tecra M3 seems to be a decent performer, even though it's definately not designed to be a gaming machine. :-)
And once again thanks for the screenshots!!
---
MattK
05-01-2005, 02:50 PM
Well, I saw the TE but I didn't know what it stood for. My M3 with 6600 TE is coming Tuesday, though my enthusiasm is now dampened somewhat. Wasn't there a big deal with the Compaq X1000 and the video card? Not quite the same situation, but I'm a little bummed nonetheless. And a 15% restocking fee if I decide not to keep it because of the lower performance! I thought the reported fan noise was a result of the 6600 at typical speeds and I was hoping I could undervolt the CPU and get the sound down. So the 6600 is clocked low and the fan still comes on alot? Bummer deal. :confused:
rinthos
05-01-2005, 03:13 PM
Regarding the Hp/Compaq X1000/zt3000/nx7000 notebooks, the issue with the graphic card was that if you ordered a Radeon 9200, the driver reported it as a Radeon 9200,
however people removed the keyboard and found that the GPU was that of a 9000 (same pci-Id as a radeon 9000 too).
So that's a completely different issue. It was listed as a radeon 9200, but the chip was a radeon 9000.
For the tecra m3, fan is likely a result of hot ram, the cpu, gpu, and v-ram, all in such a small space and a conservative formula in the bios to keep the system cool.
---
MattK
05-01-2005, 03:24 PM
The 6600 was the reason I chose the M3 over the Asus w3v. The 6600TE is now only marginally better than the x600 in the w3v. :saywhat:
MattK
05-01-2005, 03:34 PM
Regarding the Hp/Compaq X1000/zt3000/nx7000 notebooks, the issue with the graphic card was that if you ordered a Radeon 9200, the driver reported it as a Radeon 9200,
however people removed the keyboard and found that the GPU was that of a 9000 (same pci-Id as a radeon 9000 too).
So that's a completely different issue. It was listed as a radeon 9200, but the chip was a radeon 9000.
For the tecra m3, fan is likely a result of hot ram, the cpu, gpu, and v-ram, all in such a small space and a conservative formula in the bios to keep the system cool.
---
I know the situation with the X1000 I didn't say the situations were exactly the same, but the situations are similar. The lack of a firm definition of exactly what a mobile graphics card is and does is a problem. It's been pretty well established that a "standard" 6600 is better than a x600. A 6600 TE is only marginally better than an X600 from what I can tell. If anyone has benchies that show a significant difference, that would make me feel alot better but I've seen ~1200-1300 quoted for 3dmark05 for the x600 which is similar to the 6600 TE here. The "typical" 6600's are averaging ~2200.
If I knew then what I know now, I might have ordered an ASUS w3v with the x600.
oymd
05-01-2005, 06:13 PM
Yeah...I'm a little dissapointed too...but lets look at it from another angle....for such a LIGHT, SEXY, VERY STURDY, BUSINESS laptop thats primarily intended for WORK, the benchies its throwing out is very impressive:
2005: ~1200
2003: ~3700
2001: ~12000
Aquamark: ~22000
Damn...those are by no means low for a 5.0lb lappy. I was complaining about the heat and the fan....I cant imagine what the heat and fan noise would be like at ...say....300MHz core/ 300MHz memory....the lappy is just TOO THIN... :nono:
Anyways...I just feel STUPID cause I downplayed the "TE" thing...and I just feel like I didnt get what I thought I was buying, but at the end of the day...its more than I need...I've actually ONLY installed CHESSMATER 10th Edition on my lappy...so I can train and improve on my hobby between Surgeries and during breaks on my shifts...when I get home and think of DOOM3 or HL2...I hit my home PC....
Imagine going into the dressing room...or the smoking room...or the pantry to find a doctor (or a lawyer, or business man) banging at the keyboard of a lappy playing DOOM3!! :eek: ...not good....
I'm liking it more and more by the day..... :)
MattK
05-01-2005, 06:55 PM
Well it's good to hear you are liking it more and more. Have you tried undervolting it to reduce noise and heat? My MSI 510C went from 65C to 46C under full load and the Dell M70 I'm contemplating went from 63C to 51C under full load (not taxing the GPU much though). What's the temperature of the M3 under full load?
The issue with me is that if I had known what the performance of the 6600TE was, I would have continued looking at other thin and light notebooks. The 6600 Nvidia name made the M3 an easy sale when it shouldn't have been. Saying the performance will be lower than other 6600's is kind of misleading. If they had given me the frequency when I ordered, it might have made me think more. As it was, I figured it would just be at the low end of the Nvidia range rather than below the given range. :scratch:
The bummer is that if I decide to return it, I have to pay 15% restocking fee. :(
I'll hold off that issue though until I can check it out. Maybe I'll shrug it off once I get it on Tuesday.
oymd
05-01-2005, 07:29 PM
Well it's good to hear you are liking it more and more. Have you tried undervolting it to reduce noise and heat? My MSI 510C went from 65C to 46C under full load and the Dell M70 I'm contemplating went from 63C to 51C under full load (not taxing the GPU much though). What's the temperature of the M3 under full load?
The issue with me is that if I had known what the performance of the 6600TE was, I would have continued looking at other thin and light notebooks. The 6600 Nvidia name made the M3 an easy sale when it shouldn't have been. Saying the performance will be lower than other 6600's is kind of misleading. If they had given me the frequency when I ordered, it might have made me think more. As it was, I figured it would just be at the low end of the Nvidia range rather than below the given range. :scratch:
The bummer is that if I decide to return it, I have to pay 15% restocking fee. :(
I'll hold off that issue though until I can check it out. Maybe I'll shrug it off once I get it on Tuesday.
Yeah...I agree totally with what u say....the 6600 was what made me make up my mind totally...eventhough I play games rarely...but its good to know you're future proof with longhorn coming...and whenever u wanna play a game..U CAN!!
How can I check my tempretures on the lappy??? the CPU and GPU??
BTW..U'll like it... ;)
check out my pics on the "Photo Gallery" section...
Is where you can grab a program to monitor temperatures.
In regards to the x1000 issue being similar to this one, hardly.
Toshiba at least states the solution is slower.
Hp/compaq maintain that they are selling a 9200.
Anyways, that all aside, business notebooks in general (and the tecra m3) are -not- designed for gaming.
They are designed for business users (corporate users).
Advanced graphic capabilities for business systems typically are useful for applications such as AutoCAD etc.
I agree that a slower 6600 is a bummer, however I would be willing to bet that the Tecra M3 has the best graphics capability in its class.
The -vast majority- of the radeon mobility x600 systems are larger.
The closest competition I can find would be similar to the Hp Nc6000 series. However once again, graphic capabilities are severely underclocked on the nc6000.
Now this 'underclocking' is fine since I use the system for business uses, However other issues have made me completely dissatisfied with the nc6000.
I should've returned it when it overheated.
that said, I have been using a dell d600 and dell d800 at work, and I will say they are very nice systems. The d600 has inferior graphics, but as previously stated, these are business models, so that's not a priority by any means. As such, they all do the job for me.
If you're truly wanting a system for gaming, then the Tecra M3 isn't what you're looking for. If you play a game now and then, It'll likely work out well though.
Is where you can grab a program to monitor temperatures.
In regards to the x1000 issue being similar to this one, hardly.
Toshiba at least states the solution is slower.
Hp/compaq maintain that they are selling a 9200.
Anyways, that all aside, business notebooks in general (and the tecra m3) are -not- designed for gaming.
They are designed for business users (corporate users).
Advanced graphic capabilities for business systems typically are useful for applications such as AutoCAD etc.
I agree that a slower 6600 is a bummer, however I would be willing to bet that the Tecra M3 has the best graphics capability in its class.
The -vast majority- of the radeon mobility x600 systems are larger.
The closest competition I can find would be similar to the Hp Nc6000 series. However once again, graphic capabilities are severely underclocked on the nc6000.
Now this 'underclocking' is fine since I use the system for business uses, However other issues have made me completely dissatisfied with the nc6000.
I should've returned it when it overheated.
that said, I have been using a dell d600 and dell d800 at work, and I will say they are very nice systems. The d600 has inferior graphics, but as previously stated, these are business models, so that's not a priority by any means. As such, they all do the job for me.
If you're truly wanting a system for gaming, then the Tecra M3 isn't what you're looking for. If you play a game now and then, It'll likely work out well though.
Well, in the great notebookforums tradition, I have to disagree. The issue in both cases is rooted in that there was no "firm" definition of the given video card. In the X1000, the "9200" label was used because the "9000" GPU HP used performed similarly and the "9200" was considered to not be a specific circuit board, but a given set of features and performance range. In the M3 case, the same circuit board is used but at a much lower frequency than Nvidia specifies. In both cases, the definition of the video card was murky. In fact, the X1000 was preferable because in the end you got 9200 performance. It appears that the M3 does not deliver 6600 performance.
The problem I have is that there was no information at the time about what frequency the GPU operated at. The warning was that "The graphics processor is optimized for this specific computer model and GPU performance will be slower than the standard nVidia GeForce Go 6600/6200." I wouldn't take it into court, but it was misleading. I think it was reasonable to assume it might be 10% or even 20% slower, but a nearly 45% drop in 3dMark05 is pretty extreme.
I was going to do some finite element analysis pre and post processing on the machine which is heavy in OpenGL and the GPU is important- in a "business" sense. You don't have to game to make the GPU important. There are similar notebooks with similar GPU performance:
HP NW8240, Asus w3v, Sony S series, IBM T43.
I was watching all of those but decided on the M3 because I liked the Nvidia 6600 GPU. I haven't made my mind up, but I was disappointed to see the 6600 TE performance levels because it looks like I should have kept looking. I'm not going to see that huge of a boost over my 9600 machine as I thought.
rinthos
05-01-2005, 11:18 PM
Just a few points to make:
Quote:
---
In the M3 case, the same circuit board is used but at a much lower frequency than Nvidia specifies
---
Actually incorrect. The PCI-ID is different for the TE gpus. Therefore it can't be the -exact- same circuit board.
As previously stated, it has different thermal algorithms, different v-bios, and is not tested to run at the 'normal 6600' speeds in quality assurance.
GeForce Go 6600 0x0144
GeForce Go 6600 TE/6200 TE 0x0146 *** TE pci-id is different. ***
GeForce Go 6600 0x0148
GeForce Go 6200 0x0164
GeForce Go 6200 0x0167
In regards to the other systems you listed:
HW Nw8240 = Workstation class (Notebook-Workstation 8240). Hp does not even classify it as thin/light because it isn't.
Sony S270 series = 64mb v-ram, not 128, and also agp (less power) not pci-express. (also 400mhz fsb). those points = cooler operation, and performance is lower.
Ibm T43 = mobility x300, intel integrated 900, or fireGl. The FireGL T43s are the 'performance/professional workstation' P models, but they are the equiv of an x300 class gpu.
You're trying to take features from desktop replacement notebooks and from professional/workstation class notebooks and put them into a thin/light system.
It just doesn't work that way.
Also, if OpenGL is of primary importance for your business, you may suggest to your purchase/lease reps that you want OpenGL certified systems.
After all, Geforce and Radeon are -not- OpenGL certified for development apps. That's what FireGL and Quadro systems are for.
In regards to the x1000 video issue, ATI made that comment, -not hp-. Hp has never released any documentation regarding the issue.
Thus the default response, if they list 9200, it is a 9200.
Toshiba has provided at least some information regarding their gpu (i.e. they said it was slower). I'm not saying it's a good presentation (As you do have to look for it in fine print), but it's more than anyone else has published regarding their systems under similar circumstances.
If you are using OpenGL apps (but not stressful ones) or if you design utilizing OpenGL (as various times I do via Java 2D mainly)
then a Radeon 9000/Nvidia fx5200 would be more than sufficient.
However, if you run stressful OpenGL apps (which if a slow 6600 is insufficient to run)
then my suggestions would be:
1) Get a mobile workstation notebook (Dell precision, Hp nw series, ibm pro designation system, etc).
2) get a mobile system with a 'professional' graphic solution. (quadro or fireGL)
3) Get a desktop or a desktop-replacement class notebook.
MattK
05-02-2005, 07:15 AM
Just a few points to make:
Quote:
---
In the M3 case, the same circuit board is used but at a much lower frequency than Nvidia specifies
---
Actually incorrect. The PCI-ID is different for the TE gpus. Therefore it can't be the -exact- same circuit board.
*Snip*
In regards to the other systems you listed:
HW Nw8240 = Workstation class (Notebook-Workstation 8240). Hp does not even classify it as thin/light because it isn't.
Sony S270 series = 64mb v-ram, not 128, and also agp (less power) not pci-express. (also 400mhz fsb). those points = cooler operation, and performance is lower.
Ibm T43 = mobility x300, intel integrated 900, or fireGl. The FireGL T43s are the 'performance/professional workstation' P models, but they are the equiv of an x300 class gpu.
You're trying to take features from desktop replacement notebooks and from professional/workstation class notebooks and put them into a thin/light system.
It just doesn't work that way.
*Snip*
Toshiba has provided at least some information regarding their gpu (i.e. they said it was slower). I'm not saying it's a good presentation (As you do have to look for it in fine print), but it's more than anyone else has published regarding their systems under similar circumstances.
*snip*
You seem intent on trying to prove me wrong as much as possible. I don't understand why you are trying so hard.
With regards to the X1000, you seem to do nothing but pick on specifics. As I said, the issue is about misrepresenting the video card due to a lack of a firm definition of the video card itself. Reading Toshibas "addendum" make it sound like you will get a 6600 on the low end of Nvidia's specs, not a 45% slower card in 3Dmark05.
The Tecra M3 is 1.25 inches thick and 5.2 lbs - thin and light.
The HP NW8240 is 1.1 inches thin and 5.7lbs -thin and light.
The Sony S series 9600 ATI solution is the same as I have now and the benchmarks are similar for the 9600 as the x600 as the 6600 TE and it is thin and light.
The ASUS W3v (which you didn't mention) has an X600 and is thin and light.
The IBM FireGL T2 does NOT perform at X300 levels, it performs better than X600 levels and is thin and light.
So, there are alot of "thin and light" competitors to the Tecra M3 (4 + tecra M3). The difference is that the M3 touts a "6600" and that why I bought it (and it was a little cheaper).
I can't decide if I want to return the Tecra until I get it and test it, but there is a 15% restocking fee if I do.
Was I mislead? Should I be bummed? Is a 15% restocking fee fair if I decide to return it due to the graphics performance?
Fidget
05-02-2005, 12:21 PM
i dont think you were really misled, you just bought before this little fact came to light, its a byproduct of buyinh early. i would still be a bit bummed, but then again you are still getting a good machine, just not quite the machine you thought you were getting. and personally although i dont like the idea of re-stockin fees, i think in this case it is fair if you decide to return it based solely on the graphics performance.
EWB
05-02-2005, 12:32 PM
Is it safe to assume they did this to the A4 as well?
MattK
05-02-2005, 03:06 PM
Well, I was home today and the Tecra M3 arrived. I unpacked it and turned it on and it sounded good at first. Then the "dust buster" kicked in and it was really loud. So I immediately installed mobilemeter and the temp was nearly 69C. I installed rmclock and prime95 and undervolted it using needlenik's great post. Result was that running Prime 95 the fan was only on low instead of high and would actually turn off for 5-10 minutes at a time. Final voltage was 1.052 V (originally 1.356 V) which ran fine for two hours. I'll run it overnight to stress it out good. What's weird is that mobilemeter only recorded some discrete temperatures. Temperatures lower than 55C were reported okay, but the temperature tended to jump from 55C (no fan) to 65C (low fan) to 69C (dust buster). Must be something with the BIOS and Toshibas thermal solution. The extended battery I bought may make it quieter since the inlet is at the bottom and the battery thickness may help airflow. The bottom corner was warm but not hot after undervolting. Any of the notebook coolers available should make this thing even quieter which is a relief. However, I still need to test the graphics chip and the CPU under heavy load together but the undervolting results were encouraging.
i dont think you were really misled, you just bought before this little fact came to light, its a byproduct of buyinh early. i would still be a bit bummed, but then again you are still getting a good machine, just not quite the machine you thought you were getting. and personally although i dont like the idea of re-stockin fees, i think in this case it is fair if you decide to return it based solely on the graphics performance.
I disagree and it's not a "little" fact. I think I was misled and I don't think I was the only one. Saying the performance is lower is fine, but no one expects a 45% drop in performance. I'd expect a 6600 to dramatically outperform an X600 or a 9600/9700 GPU, but in this case it doesn't apppear to. When it gives Toshiba the leg up over competing notebooks, I'd say it is misleading.
I tend to think the consumer should be protected over a company. I think I should not have to pay restocking fees if graphics performance is the issue as it is branded as a 6600. If Toshiba wants to sell a 6600 with lower performance, they should inform the customer of the comparative performance levels or at least the specs of the new part upfront otherwise they are misleading. I'd say if it was a 6600 that ran at 275Mhz, you'd be right. Since it runs at 225Mhz, I think I'm right.
rinthos
05-02-2005, 05:04 PM
Well this'll be my last post on this thread, no point in repeating the same information over and over.
1) Ibm laptops with the T2 (ati FireGL) video solution contain a Certified OpenGL graphic solution. It is the certified/professional version of the mobility radeon 9600. Totally different League. More money is spent on these systems, and I think the price of the systems should well-reflect this. They are -not- a business thin-light, but a workstation-thin/light class notebook.
2) The Hp Nw8240 is classified by HP as a mobile workstation. You calling it a thin-light is going against what the manufacturer (HP) says. It once again has a certified fireGL video. Thus once again it's a mobile workstation class, not a business-thin+light.
3) The Sony S series has a radeon 9600/9700. It won't hit the 3dmark 2005 scores that the underclocked 6600 will. In fact, it's approx half in 2005 scoring. See for yourself :)
4) I did not post about the Asus because I do not work with Asus and thus have no knowledge of their products/offerings. Me commenting about them would be throwing out only what i can read from websites and not experience first hand. As such, I left that unmentioned due to my own ignorance.
5) The 9000/9200 hp issue is not the least bit similar. When using ati reference drivers, they identify it as a radeon 9000. In fact, it is 100% identical (specwise) to the radeon 9000 in the presario 2810T compaq notebook (Which was a very limited edition, and did not have the daughter card video, but the same gpu). Sure enough, using the hp drivers makes that system have a 9200 (even though the 9200 didn't exist at the time of the 2810T).
So once again, that's hp saying 9200, giving 9000. For toshiba, they say 6600TE you get a 6600TE. The ambiguity lies in what "te" means. They lightly cover in the published PDF file (and also in fine print) that it will run slower, but they do not directly attribute it to the "TE", so that I can see, but you are getting what you pay for.
Finally, your claim "If Toshiba wants to sell a 6600 with lower performance, they should inform the customer of the comparative performance levels or at least the specs of the new part upfront otherwise they are misleading. I'd say if it was a 6600 that ran at 275Mhz, you'd be right. Since it runs at 225Mhz, I think I'm right." is just plain WRONG.
The Geforce Go 6600 running at 275Mhz is within the -NORMAL- range of a -NORMAL- 6600. As such, if Toshiba clocks a Geforce Go 6600 at 275mhz (gpu), then says it underperforms the 'normal' conditions of the 6600, they would be wrong. Nvidia has never published the specs to the consumers, but they have released 'review configs' and have documented them as such.
Being that the Normal range for a 6600 gpu is 275mhz-375mhz (depending upon notebook vendor's implementation). Also, the vast majority of notebook vendors have them clocked on the lower end for thermal + power consumption reasons.
You can argue all you want, but a 275mhz 6600 = normal. 225mhz = approx 19% slower than 275mhz. As such, it's a 19% decrease in clock speed over a normal Go 6600, not 45% like you claim.
In regards to the Tecra A4, it does -not- use the TE version, thus it's a normal 6600 go (clocked ~275mhz i believe).
Considering your purchase position, I agree that restocking fees for this sort of reason are definately not fair. After all, documentation on what "TE" stands for can only be obtained through nvidia's senior staff (as normal marketing/communication depts may think you mean TC and have little to no knowledge of TE).
Toshiba support likely won't know the answer, although Toshiba Engineering would. Contacting them would definately be a difficult task.
As such, I totally agree that restocking fees should be waved for the first 3-5 business days a system is received as that is more than ample time for someone to examine system specs etc. After that period, any returning would definately cause depreciation + a loss for them, and a restocking fee does make sense, but I can see your perspective and agree with it to some extent. Now granted this is not their policy :(
MattK
05-02-2005, 07:58 PM
Well this'll be my last post on this thread, no point in repeating the same information over and over.
Agreed
1) Ibm laptops with the T2 (ati FireGL) video solution contain a Certified OpenGL graphic solution. It is the certified/professional version of the mobility radeon 9600. Totally different League. More money is spent on these systems, and I think the price of the systems should well-reflect this. They are -not- a business thin-light, but a workstation-thin/light class notebook.
2) The Hp Nw8240 is classified by HP as a mobile workstation. You calling it a thin-light is going against what the manufacturer (HP) says. It once again has a certified fireGL video. Thus once again it's a mobile workstation class, not a business-thin+light.
3) The Sony S series has a radeon 9600/9700. It won't hit the 3dmark 2005 scores that the underclocked 6600 will. In fact, it's approx half in 2005 scoring. See for yourself :)
4) I did not post about the Asus because I do not work with Asus and thus have no knowledge of their products/offerings. Me commenting about them would be throwing out only what i can read from websites and not experience first hand. As such, I left that unmentioned due to my own ignorance.
It doesn't matter what the manufacturer classifies them as, only that the specs are the similar, which they are. There is no official "thin and light" category or "mobile workstation" category set up by any organization so I think it is a matter of semantics. I have to agree that the 9600 is lower than the X600 and 6600 in 3Dmark though.
5) The 9000/9200 hp issue is not the least bit similar. When using ati reference drivers, they identify it as a radeon 9000. In fact, it is 100% identical (specwise) to the radeon 9000 in the presario 2810T compaq notebook (Which was a very limited edition, and did not have the daughter card video, but the same gpu). Sure enough, using the hp drivers makes that system have a 9200 (even though the 9200 didn't exist at the time of the 2810T).
So once again, that's hp saying 9200, giving 9000. For toshiba, they say 6600TE you get a 6600TE. The ambiguity lies in what "te" means. They lightly cover in the published PDF file (and also in fine print) that it will run slower, but they do not directly attribute it to the "TE", so that I can see, but you are getting what you pay for.
Well, from what I understood, the 9000 installed in the X1000's was peforming at a higher level than all other 9000 solutions and at the level of other 9200 video cards and as such was equivalent to the 9200.
The question was never if I was getting a fair price, the question is whether I was misled. The price is fair for a 6600TE if you know beforehand what that is.
Finally, your claim "If Toshiba wants to sell a 6600 with lower performance, they should inform the customer of the comparative performance levels or at least the specs of the new part upfront otherwise they are misleading. I'd say if it was a 6600 that ran at 275Mhz, you'd be right. Since it runs at 225Mhz, I think I'm right." is just plain WRONG.
The Geforce Go 6600 running at 275Mhz is within the -NORMAL- range of a -NORMAL- 6600. As such, if Toshiba clocks a Geforce Go 6600 at 275mhz (gpu), then says it underperforms the 'normal' conditions of the 6600, they would be wrong. Nvidia has never published the specs to the consumers, but they have released 'review configs' and have documented them as such.
Being that the Normal range for a 6600 gpu is 275mhz-375mhz (depending upon notebook vendor's implementation). Also, the vast majority of notebook vendors have them clocked on the lower end for thermal + power consumption reasons.
You can argue all you want, but a 275mhz 6600 = normal. 225mhz = approx 19% slower than 275mhz. As such, it's a 19% decrease in clock speed over a normal Go 6600, not 45% like you claim.
I was talking about performance. 3Dmark05 scores of ~2200 for the 6600 and ~1200 for the 6600TE. I'm confused as to why my statement is wrong. I thought I was getting a 6600, but I got a lower clocked chip.
In regards to the Tecra A4, it does -not- use the TE version, thus it's a normal 6600 go (clocked ~275mhz i believe).
Considering your purchase position, I agree that restocking fees for this sort of reason are definately not fair. After all, documentation on what "TE" stands for can only be obtained through nvidia's senior staff (as normal marketing/communication depts may think you mean TC and have little to no knowledge of TE).
Toshiba support likely won't know the answer, although Toshiba Engineering would. Contacting them would definately be a difficult task.
As such, I totally agree that restocking fees should be waved for the first 3-5 business days a system is received as that is more than ample time for someone to examine system specs etc. After that period, any returning would definately cause depreciation + a loss for them, and a restocking fee does make sense, but I can see your perspective and agree with it to some extent. Now granted this is not their policy :(
That's what I'm talking about... Thank you for that. I also don't think I should have to pay it if I decide to return it in a few days. If the reason was weaker, I would say tough luck, but the only way to find out what the 6600TE really was, was to buy and check it out yourself. That was really my whole point, the restocking fee is a tough pill to swallow if I return it because of the 6600TE.
Tiebird
05-03-2005, 04:58 PM
I was wondering if anyone has been able to use a software overclocking utility on the 6600TE and how fast they could clock it to and what sort of performance they got with it being OC'd
HotToshi
05-23-2007, 10:37 PM
Aloha!!
Just recieved my Tecra M3.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tecra M3-S212TD
Intel® Pentium® M Processor 730 [1.60GHz, 2MB L2 cache, 533MHz FSB], Microsoft® Windows XP Professional (SP2),
nVIDIA® GeForce™ Go 6600 TE 128M w/dedicated 128MB SDRAM
Bluetooth v1.2, 512MB PC4200 DDR2 533MHz SDRAM (512MBx1),
14.1" XGA display (1024x768),
60GB HDD (5400rpm),
DVD/CD-RW Multifunction drive,
Intel® PRO/Wireless 2200BG (802.11b/g),
Bluetooth v.1.2,
Lithium-ion Battery (6-cell, 4700mAh),
Microsoft Works™ Version 8.0,
1-Year Standard Limited Warranty,
Toshiba Executive Nylon Carrying Case
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I must say its really light and well constructed. I'll give it a run for a few days before I write a thorough review. However there are a few initial points that I thought that I should point out.
1- I'm not very happy with the screen. I dont know if this is standard for XGA 14.1 screens, but I thought the CONTRAST would be much better. There are no BLACKS what so ever, just dark greys. I've been working on a "Samsung Syncmaster LCD 151P Porsche" for the past 2.5 years, and there is a MAJOR difference in clarity and contrast. Although its OK..I just dont think this is a good screen for a TOP OF the Line TECRA laptop. Too bad. :(
2- When on AC, and on FULL POWER mode, the fan gets VERY VERY noisy. Its laughable, more like the FX 5800 fiasco if anyone remembers. And it gets BURNING hot, you simply CANT put it on your lap. It will LITERALLY BURN you in 10-15 minutes. You will also lose your manhood...cuz there are vents on the front too... :rolleyes:
3- Contrary to what other guys here felt concerning the touchpad buttons, I dont find them that annoying, though they are not GOOD by any means, just a little different. Any EL CHEAPO HP has better buttons.
4- I ordered a Geforce 6600 128MB, however I cant find any relevant information about it on the lappy. It always says: Geforce 6200 64MB/Geforce 6600 128MB EVERYWHERE!! In Dxdiag, in Device Manager, in Display Properties, in 3DMark system properties, but they ALL say the video memory is 128MB. What really is freaking me out that I got in 3Dmark 2001SE ONLY ~5000 points...what the f!@#..........I havent tried 3Dmark2003 or 2005. Where do u think the trouble is? AA and AF are off, I'm on AC and in full power??!! Could it be divers? How can I download latest drivers. Toshiba has NONE, and Nvidia says to get all ther Geforce GO drivers from Toshiba!?
I'll post some pics, and a thorough review will follow.
P.S. I paid around $1700 for my config, which is quiet reasonable, but there are guys who are going up with their specs all the way to ~2300, there's even someone who just reviewed the M3 who paid ~$3500. Thats a LOT of money to pay to get THIS WASHED OUT SCREEN, NOISY FAN and POOR TOUCHPAD BUTTONS :rolleyes:
IMO The TECRA line should be a little MORE REFINED!!
Why does the laptop get so hot - I have been trying to find out why but no one can answer this question enough to say oh thats why...