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The Laptop Tweaking Guide - Page 4

post #61 of 77
Got a question I cant seem to find the answer too. If I have XP MCE installed on a dell laptop, and a windows XPpro installation cd that I slipstreamed with SP2. Can I install my retail version of Xppro instead of using the oem XPMCE from dell?
post #62 of 77
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vze2hnvz
Got a question I cant seem to find the answer too. If I have XP MCE installed on a dell laptop, and a windows XPpro installation cd that I slipstreamed with SP2. Can I install my retail version of Xppro instead of using the oem XPMCE from dell?
Yup. Once you reformat, the computer is blank. You can then install any operating system on it that you want.

And thanks prona! I had a quick read through and some of that info is very good, some stuff I dont agree with (page file for instance), but anyway, I'll make sure to add in when I update
post #63 of 77
Beautiful thing!
post #64 of 77
Yeaaaaaah K6. You're guide is awesome. Also, keep kicking a in CS:S.
post #65 of 77
Thanks for this tweeking guide!
You Da Man!
post #66 of 77
great work dude!
post #67 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. K6
While there would be some performance benefit due to the fact that you are keeping the page file closer to the center, I don't know how much the performance benefit outweighs the extra work.
Actually, partitions start on the outside of the platter, so your first partition is the fastest.

Quote:
See, I'm almost positive that you would still need about 50MB of a pagefile on the XP partition or otherwise XP will get cranky.
No, your statement that you must have a paging file is incorrect; that's just a fairytale. XP runs perfectly fine without one if that is what you want, but there can be reasons to still keep one (for instance, to avoid that stupid warning message from Photoshop ).

On the flip side, the performance benefits of having no page file are usually non-existent. Also, if you want the ability to do post-mortem analysis, you need a page file that is larger than the amount of memory you have. Finally, your statement about potential negative effects of pagefiles above 2Gig is also incorrect. There are no problems with large page files.

Quote:
The thing is, I need to list some good 3rd party partition software.
Why? You can do all your partioning using the partitioning utility that's on the XP CD. The only purpose you would need a 3rd-party utility for would be if you want to change your partitioning after you have installed your OS.

P.S.: Forgot to say: Nice job on your guide!
post #68 of 77
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirx
Actually, partitions start on the outside of the platter, so your first partition is the fastest.
Center of the disk map. IIRC, this is the beginning (outside) of the second platter of the hard drive, yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirx
No, your statement that you must have a paging file is incorrect; that's just a fairytale. XP runs perfectly fine without one if that is what you want, but there can be reasons to still keep one (for instance, to avoid that stupid warning message from Photoshop ).
No, it is correct, you just refuted yourself . Note that I said XP will get "cranky." Which it will. If you dont have a small page file on the XP partition/disk/whatever, you'll get random error messages and slowdowns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirx
On the flip side, the performance benefits of having no page file are usually non-existent. Also, if you want the ability to do post-mortem analysis, you need a page file that is larger than the amount of memory you have. Finally, your statement about potential negative effects of pagefiles above 2Gig is also incorrect. There are no problems with large page files.
There are some performance benefits to having no page file, it depends on your usage. The page file, unfortunately, is something that is completely usage dependent, and what is good for some may be horrible for others. For isntance, having no page file works well when you have a 24/7 machine with a lot of memory that runs the same programs. Large page files are disastrous for the hard drive as they fragment the hell out of it. Further more they are a useless waste of space. Do some field work and you'll see what I mean.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirx
Why? You can do all your partioning using the partitioning utility that's on the XP CD. The only purpose you would need a 3rd-party utility for would be if you want to change your partitioning after you have installed your OS.
The partitioning utility on the XP CD isn't that great. First off, the quick format doesn't really erase data, so it's only good for blank drives (which, if you got your laptop from an OEM which 99% of the people here did, isnt the case for them). The long format is slow as hell. Using 3rd party software to blank the drive (write 0's to everything) and then parition it will be a more complete and speedy process I believe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirx
P.S.: Forgot to say: Nice job on your guide!
Thanks! It's outdated and is in need of a major update, but I need to finish this semester first
post #69 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. K6
Center of the disk map. IIRC, this is the beginning (outside) of the second platter of the hard drive, yes?
No, all modern hard drives stripe their files across platters (so that parts of the file are read in parallel by all the available read/write heads), so the files of the first partition are located at the edge of the available physical disk platters, where the transfer rate is highest.

Quote:
No, it is correct, you just refuted yourself . Note that I said XP will get "cranky." Which it will.
No, I haven't, and no, it won't. There is a difference between XP hick-upping, and some silly piece of software (written by a Mac-only software shop, too...) giving out useless wanrning messages.

XP couldn't care less how large the paging file is, and literally so. As far as the OS' memory management is concerned, all that the presence or absence of the page file does is increase or decrease the total pool of virtual memory you have available. In other words, a system with 1Gig RAM and 1Gig pagefile will look exactly identical to XP, from that perspective, to a system with 2Gigs of memory and no page file.

Quote:
If you dont have a small page file on the XP partition/disk/whatever, you'll get random error messages and slowdowns.
I have been running one of my machines without a page file since April 2002, and I have never seen any error messages, or slowdowns, ever. That machine (an Inspiron 8200, in case it matters) was my primary work machine for a couple of years, and was used an average of 8 hours a day, running lots of different programs, including Office, Photoshop, AutoCAD, Matlab, Visual Studio, etc., etc.

I am not aware of any situation where the lack of a page file would prompt error messages (other than running out of memory, of course, but that can happen with or without a page file). I would be more than curious if you could document any of those fabled cases...

Quote:
Large page files are disastrous for the hard drive as they fragment the hell out of it. Further more they are a useless waste of space. Do some field work and you'll see what I mean.
My guess is that I have done a lot more field work than you imagine...

Anyway, page file fragmentation can be prevented in various ways, first and foremost simply by using a fixed-size page file. If you are really concerned about that, you can create a separate partition exclusivley for the page file. And as I said, there are scenarios were you must have a page file that exceeds the amount of physical memory you have. If you have 2Gigs of RAM, in these scenarios, then you need a page file larger than that, see my previous post.

Quote:
The partitioning utility on the XP CD isn't that great.
Sure, but so what? It does all it needs to do.

Quote:
First off, the quick format doesn't really erase data
Why would you care? Unless you have security reasons, why would you care what the unused bits on your hard drive say? There is otherwise absolutely no practical reason, at least on a known good drive, to use the long format. The only benefit of the long format is that you get an additional bad-sector check for free, but with modern hard drives that a) are perfectly capable of managing bad sectors on their own, and b) rarely develop bad sectors in the first place (unless they really have a lot of mileage on them), there is really no reason to fret about that.

Quote:
but I need to finish this semester first.
Allright, good to see that you have your piorities straight
post #70 of 77
Pirx, here's a total noob question.

Would it not be right that the only way the lack of a set pagefile size would have serious affect to running an application(s) would be if the hard drive was totally full? Then windows has no room to allocate the swap file and requested ram would be taken up by each app, thus reducing the available ram to run the app(s).
(Actually 2 noob questions)
Is it possible to fill a hard drive to the point that windows is unable to create a pagefile if it needs to?
post #71 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by r@mside
Would it not be right that the only way the lack of a set pagefile size would have serious affect to running an application(s) would be if the hard drive was totally full?
I am not sure I understand your question correctly, but if your hard drive is full, then your page file cannot grow anymore, and if you are already using all available memory, then you will receive two warning messages, one about being critically low on disk space, and another one about being low on virtual memory. Depending on how well your applications are written, one or several of them may then hang or crash; a reboot is in order at that point, if you can still do that. As a rule, Windows really doesn't like running out of both memory and disk space...

Quote:
Is it possible to fill a hard drive to the point that windows is unable to create a pagefile if it needs to?
Sure, you can always fill up a hard drive by trying to cram lots and/or big enough files into it.
post #72 of 77
nice post thanks...

the rain must be ala noah's ark style for you to write this much.
post #73 of 77
Thread Starter 
Ahh, ok, pirx, I think the problem here is the intention of the guide: it is written for those that aren't sure how to get the best performance out of their laptops and want to know how. All of what you're saying is true and on the specific level I highly agree, but this guide is written on a more basic level. As I said in my first post regarding this manner, I have to recommend things down the middle of the road because there are so many different people with different configurations and usage of their laptops that tweaks apply differently for each case. Some people have 256MB of RAM, some have 2GB; some have fast hard drives, some have slower; some use photoshop, some game; etc. etc. What I recommended I think is something that pretty much should be a good step for everyone, but those that dont have as much know how, maintenance schedules, or troubleshooting abilities, won't be screwed either. If you want to write a more highly detailed mini-guide on partitions, the page file, and performance, I'd be happy to include it in the guide under your authorship whenever I update .
post #74 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. K6
Ahh, ok, pirx, I think the problem here is the intention of the guide: it is written for those that aren't sure how to get the best performance out of their laptops and want to know how.
Oh, I understand, and I do agree with just about everything that you write, including your recommendations for page file size. I was just nitpicking on your remark that implied that one must have a page file, which is simply not true. On the other hand, I fully agree that the average user is best served by using a moderately-sized page file along the lines of what you recommended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. K6
If you want to write a more highly detailed mini-guide on partitions, the page file, and performance, I'd be happy to include it in the guide under your authorship whenever I update.
Let me know when you want to do it; no promises, but if I can find the time, I'll be happy to contribute if you want me to.

P.S.: One of the most important "tools" that I recommend to everyone (since it has saved my own ass so many times...) is a disk imaging program (right now, after PowerQuest has been swallowed by Symantec, the only reputable offering that I can recommend is the one by Acronis; they even offer an add-on now that allows you to transfer your system to different hardware). This allows you to save an exact snapshot of your system configuration before you start tweaking and fiddling around/experimenting with your system. If you screw up in the process, all you need to do is restore your disk image, and it is as if nothing ever happened. Most highly recommended! It might be a good idea to at least mention the existence of such software in your guide; in my book, it is an indispensable "tweaking companion"
post #75 of 77
ok. so say i reformated and i wanted to install linux ubuntu, would i HAVE TO dual boot, or could i just install the linux os and it will work?
post #76 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy223
ok. so say i reformated and i wanted to install linux ubuntu, would i HAVE TO dual boot, or could i just install the linux os and it will work?
Sure, if Linux is all you want to run on your machine, then there is no need for a dual-boot configuration.
post #77 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirx
Sure, if Linux is all you want to run on your machine, then there is no need for a dual-boot configuration.
thanx for the info
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