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Time for a "newer" video card, suggestions?

post #1 of 28
9/16/05 at 9:53am
Thread Starter 
Howdy. I'm putting together a desktop to be getting here in about 3-4 weeks. Just ordering the parts off newegg to save a little bit over ordering from places like ibuypower or alienware.

I think I have most of it mapped out so far but the video card. I've used a 'gaming' laptop for the last few years, and have not kept up on the latest video cards. I'm thinking of getting a motherboard with two x16 pcie slots so I can do the whole SLI deal if I choose.

Here are the components so far:
Processor: AMD Athlon 64 3200+ Venice 1GHz FSB Socket 939
MB: ASUS A8N-SLI Deluxe Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 SLI ATX AMD Motherboard
MEM: 2x 1 gig sticks (2 gigs total)
HD: Western Digital Raptor WD740GD 74GB 10,000 RPM Serial ATA150

The motherboard seemed like a decent one from the customer reviews, and the processor is a mid-ranged one from what I can tell. I figured for more hard drive space, I'll eventually get a 250 gig 7,200 rpg serial drive for storage.

I don't know what to get for video though. The higher end nvidia (7800's I think) are a bit to pricey from what I can gather. How are the performance over the 6600 or 6800? Would I see better performance from getting two 6600 cards and SLI'ing them together then getting one 6800ultra or 7800? ... or should I get a 6800 or 7800 now, and then in a year or two, get the same card and SLI them together once the price drops, and there are better games out to provide a need to SLI two of the higher end cards together?

Thanks for any advice.
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post #2 of 28
9/16/05 at 12:19pm
I would buy the 7800 GT. And I would recommend the eVGA card. Factory overclocked from 400 to 445 core, and 1.0 to 1.07 Memory. Also has a lifetime warranty, and the icing on the cake would be if you properly use eVGA's 90 day trade-up progam. That will place trade-up by December..., prices could fall in 3 month to make it a 7800GTX for $399.... if not something better. Read about eVGA's trade-up program, they're the only ones that do it. Even crazier is they're also the only ones to offer a lifetime warranty even if you replace the HSF, or overclock the card further besides BFGTech.

Lastly, the first Benchmarks for ATI's new cards are out and its not looking too good. 7800 will still be king and the GTX is just too expensive. Besides, why get a GTX when the GT can be overclocked to GTX speeds, with some people getting them well beyond GTX speeds.

TheEgg has it for $359 after rebate right now.
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post #3 of 28
9/16/05 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDZen
I would buy the 7800 GT. And I would recommend the eVGA card. Factory overclocked from 400 to 445 core, and 1.0 to 1.07 Memory. Also has a lifetime warranty, and the icing on the cake would be if you properly use eVGA's 90 day trade-up progam. That will place trade-up by December..., prices could fall in 3 month to make it a 7800GTX for $399.... if not something better. Read about eVGA's trade-up program, they're the only ones that do it. Even crazier is they're also the only ones to offer a lifetime warranty even if you replace the HSF, or overclock the card further besides BFGTech.

Lastly, the first Benchmarks for ATI's new cards are out and its not looking too good. 7800 will still be king and the GTX is just too expensive. Besides, why get a GTX when the GT can be overclocked to GTX speeds, with some people getting them well beyond GTX speeds.

TheEgg has it for $359 after rebate right now.
It's not the core or memory speeds that differentiate the 7800GTX from the 7800GT, it's the laser-cut pipe-line reduction from 24 to 20 that make the difference.
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post #4 of 28
9/16/05 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karma
It's not the core or memory speeds that differentiate the 7800GTX from the 7800GT, it's the laser-cut pipe-line reduction from 24 to 20 that make the difference.
From what I've read, RivaTuner and other such programs show all 24 pipes on the GT. So the question is not whether the GT also has 24 pipes, the question is if there is a way to unlock the 4 pipelines. I'm almost certain that there will be given past experiences with video cards.

Unlocking will most likely involve soldering/cutting some bridges from the rear of the card, judging from the NV4x mods. Simply unlocking by flashing the BIOS and using RivaTunner has already proven to be unsuccessful. But I'm sure that it's not impossible for the pipes to be unlocked eventually. You underestimate the modding community.
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post #5 of 28
9/16/05 at 2:02pm
With the small difference in price (for the rang they are in), a GTX would be the better option IMHO. You can get the GTX for as cheap as 429, and the GT as cheap as 348 from the egg. If you are going to be spending that kind of money on a GPU anyway, it would be well worth the extra for the GTX now. There is not much out now the can that can let the GTX flexit's muscles fully, but that will all change in the near future. If cost is at a premium, you can't go wrong with the GT though. I don't see any future of having a softmod for the GT to make it a GTX. Not many people own laser cutters
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post #6 of 28
9/16/05 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDZen
From what I've read, RivaTuner and other such programs show all 24 pipes on the GT. So the question is not whether the GT also has 24 pipes, the question is if there is a way to unlock the 4 pipelines. I'm almost certain that there will be given past experiences with video cards.

Unlocking will most likely involve soldering/cutting some bridges from the rear of the card, judging from the NV4x mods. Simply unlocking by flashing the BIOS and using RivaTunner has already proven to be unsuccessful. But I'm sure that it's not impossible for the pipes to be unlocked eventually. You underestimate the modding community.
Negative:

7800gt question...

Quote:
Hey guys Ive got a evga 7800gt and to tell ya it smokes very nice card. But I have been around every fourm everywhere and flashed every bios out there and can not unlock the extra pipes. Riva T shows em but the soft mod won't work. Spent hrs look'n at the hex entrys GT vs GTX if it can be done through the bios I can't find it. Can flash to a GTX bios but still shows 20x7 pipes has to be on the chip prob laser cut.
Quote:
Unlocking might involve soldering/cutting some bridges from the rear of the card, judging from the NV4x mods.
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post #7 of 28
9/21/05 at 9:07am
Thread Starter 
Question. There is a previous post about a guy asking questions about a new build. He went with the 6600gt and seems to be happy with it from his posts. The cards I'm wondering about are the 6800GT and the 7800GT. There seems to be about a 100$ difference in the price. I imagine with a 17-19" lcd, the max resolution I would go is 1280x1024 (that seems to be the upper resolution from the 17" ones I was checking out).

Do you think I would even notice that much of a difference between the 6800 and 7800? Also, the board I get supports SLI, so I could at some later point just buy a 2nd 6800gt if I needed more / faster graphics.

Or does two 6800 cards equal the performance of one 7800 gt?
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post #8 of 28
9/22/05 at 4:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeletor
Question. There is a previous post about a guy asking questions about a new build. He went with the 6600gt and seems to be happy with it from his posts. The cards I'm wondering about are the 6800GT and the 7800GT. There seems to be about a 100$ difference in the price. I imagine with a 17-19" lcd, the max resolution I would go is 1280x1024 (that seems to be the upper resolution from the 17" ones I was checking out).

Do you think I would even notice that much of a difference between the 6800 and 7800? Also, the board I get supports SLI, so I could at some later point just buy a 2nd 6800gt if I needed more / faster graphics.

Or does two 6800 cards equal the performance of one 7800 gt?
While knowing the potential resolution of your monitor helps to predict what performace you may need from a video card, the resolution set that the video card is running does not include performance hits from enabling AA or AF. It also doesn't take into account higher use of compex shaders or HDR lighting (FEAR, Farcry, etc).

The easy answer to all this is to figure out your budget, then buy the most expensive card you can find. Video cards almost have a direct correlation between price and performance/features (except in the $500+ range; at which point it is incremental). The most expensive card you buy will last you longer and give you more performace than a less expensive card. Personally I would buy a 7800GT if possible. Any number of review sites show good comparisons between the 6800's and the 7800's (ironically enough, Rage3d.com has done some very good reviews of nVidia cards, despite them being an ATi fan site).

One other thing to take into consideration. Don't make any decision until ATi releases it's competing cards (the R5xx series). This is a free market, and the introduction of a competitor to the 7800's will drive their price lower. At which point, then make your decision and buy away.

g/l
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post #9 of 28
9/25/05 at 4:05pm
if you can wait, see if the x1800 (r520) series is any good (unlikely), and let them make nvidia's prices fall a bit more.

I'd suggest going with a 7800gt, or gtx if you can afford it, they're well worth the money. getting a 6800 now would not provide much room for upgrading without replacing it altogether, since SLI 6800's arn't faster than a single 7800gtx.
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post #10 of 28
9/25/05 at 4:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by unfalliblekrutc
if you can wait, see if the x1800 (r520) series is any good (unlikely), and let them make nvidia's prices fall a bit more.

I'd suggest going with a 7800gt, or gtx if you can afford it, they're well worth the money. getting a 6800 now would not provide much room for upgrading without replacing it altogether, since SLI 6800's arn't faster than a single 7800gtx.
Wrong. SLI 6800Ultras are consistently faster than a single 7800GTX, or even an overclocked 7800GTX at 490/1380:



X-bit Labs: 7800 GTX Graphics Card Review w/ 6800Ultras in SLI
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post #11 of 28
9/25/05 at 4:47pm
That is the Ultra ... he was inquiring about the 6800GT. Two 6800GT's in SLI do not perform to the GTX standard.
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post #12 of 28
9/25/05 at 5:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder_PC
That is the Ultra ... he was inquiring about the 6800GT. Two 6800GT's in SLI do not perform to the GTX standard.
EDIT: Actually I changed my mind. The primary provider of performance between the 6xxx series and the 7xxx series is the number of operational pipes. The only real difference between a 7800GTX and the 7800GT is the reduced number of pipes (from 24 to 20), while the difference between a 6800Ultra and the 6800GT is only the clock speed.

With a 6800GT SLI setup you end up with 32 pipes at 350MHz compared to a single 7800GT 20 pipe card working at 400MHz.

That means the 6800GT SLI setup would have 11.2 GigaTexels/sec fillrate from the cores, while the 7800GT would have 8.0 GigaTexels/sec fillrate from its core (of course, this is ignoring the RAM speeds).

Compared to the 6800Ultras in SLI and the single 7800GTX: 12.8GigaTexel/sec for the 6800Ultras to 10.32 GigaTexels/sec for the 7800GTX.

There ends up being even more of a performance advantage of the 6800GT in SLI over a single 7800GT than the Ultras over the GTX.

If you compare the 6800GT in SLI to the single 7800GTX, you still have the 6800GTs in SLI having a higher fillrate: 11.2 compared to 10.32 GigaTexels/sec.

You do have a performance loss when working in SLI, and the GTX does have a higher memory frequency, however in practice a 6800GT SLI setup will perform very well against a single 7800GTX.

This is very different from what unfalliblekrutc was implying.

See what happens when you get me thinking?
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post #13 of 28
9/25/05 at 7:09pm
Theory is all fine and dandy, but most real world performance in current games has shown a single GTX to out perform dual 6800GTs. There are a few exceptions, most notably at lower resolutions and lower quality settings. But for the most part 2 6800GTs do not perform as well as one GTX on current games, and that gap is sure to swell on newer games. Unless someone already has one 6800 (GT, Ultra, or whatever), it would be economically silly to buy to of them instead of one GT/GTX. Now if someone already has one of the 6800's, obviously it would make more sense for the near term to just go ahead and buy a second and run in SLI.
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post #14 of 28
9/26/05 at 2:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder_PC
Theory is all fine and dandy, but most real world performance in current games has shown a single GTX to out perform dual 6800GTs. There are a few exceptions, most notably at lower resolutions and lower quality settings. But for the most part 2 6800GTs do not perform as well as one GTX on current games, and that gap is sure to swell on newer games. Unless someone already has one 6800 (GT, Ultra, or whatever), it would be economically silly to buy to of them instead of one GT/GTX. Now if someone already has one of the 6800's, obviously it would make more sense for the near term to just go ahead and buy a second and run in SLI.
I don't disagree that Skeletor should get a 7800. It is a better card, and definitely more future proof. You are right that a 6800GT in SLI makes more sense if only someone already has a 6800.

I do not agree that the performance between the two situations is easily measurable. They do perform at high settings at high resolutions just as the 7800GTX does. The best playable settings for the 6800GT SLI setup & the single 7800GTX are almost exactly the same (I finally found a good comparison between these two):



Bit-Tech: 7800GTX vs 6800GT SLI: Best Playable Settings

Notice that in the Apples to Apples comparison that the exact frame rates vary from game to game (Far Cry has exactly same minimum and average fps while NFS and HL2 are higher for the GTX), however the best playable settings between the two are really about the same.

I've also contacted a friend who is a MMPORG junkie but also a tech reviewer, who just replied:

Everquest2: 6800GT SLI = 7800GTX
WoW: 6800GT SLI < 7800GTX

Personally, I'd rather have a 7800GTX. Who wouldn't?

My pet peeve are just fanboys who gives wrong info.
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post #15 of 28
9/26/05 at 3:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karma
My pet peeve are just fanboys who gives wrong info.
Agreed. And thanks for the links backing up my last post. I hadn't seen that exact comparo. All my info was gathered looking at some older tests of 6800GTs in SLI vs. newer tests on similar systems using a GTX, that last post of yours pretty much concurs with what I had seen in other tests.
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post #16 of 28
9/26/05 at 3:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder_PC
Agreed. And thanks for the links backing up my last post. I hadn't seen that exact comparo. All my info was gathered looking at some older tests of 6800GTs in SLI vs. newer tests on similar systems using a GTX, that last post of yours pretty much concurs with what I had seen in other tests.
Basically. But you say that only at lower resolutions would the SLI beat the GTX. But at lower resolutions than 1280x1024 you are CPU limited in both setups and there is no difference whatsoever. It's the 1280x1024 and higher that you can see slight differences. The quality settings are almost exactly the same (1600x1200 2xAA vs 1280x1024 4xAA). For me, 1280x1024 still is a high resolution.
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post #17 of 28
9/26/05 at 4:59am
1280x1024 is certainly high by LCD standards. It is about average by CRT standards. By High, I was more referring to 1600x1200 and above. In most tests, even the 7800GT and GTX show very little differences between them due largely in part to the cards not even beginning to be stressed yet. The CPU is still largely a limiting factor for the 7800 series, even at 1280x1024 in most scenarios. The GTX doesn't even begin to flex it's muscles with anything currently thrown at it until 1600x1200 or so. Where the 7800 series is really going to shine is "down the road".
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post #18 of 28
9/26/05 at 5:28am
For me, Average is considered 1024x768 & lower, High is 1280x1024 & higher. Especially since the NV40 series was never designed to play resolutions higher than 1600x1200.

In anything higher than 1920x1080 the GTX will beat anything this side of a R520XT, due to the 7800's improved core design with peak resolution. This is because the NV40 series is limited to two-megapixel resolutions for Z culling. Anything higher than 1600x1200 will have a higher than normal performance drop compared to a 7800:

Uber-high-resolution gaming on today's GPUs

Technically, the NV40 core considers anything higher than 1920x1080 very high resolution, and comparing 6800GT's in SLI to a 7800GTX isn't fair at all in these situations. A more fair comparison would be to jack up the settings on 1280x1024 & 1600x1200 with high AA & AF, a place where you aren't CPU limited in almost any game but don't yet run into the two-megapixel resolution limit.

Here are two good examples of this phenomenon in action:





http://techreport.com/etc/2005q3/hir...g/index.x?pg=6

Keep in mind this is not because the cards run out of video memory; all cards tested have 256MB of DDR3. This is all chip architecture.

BTW, Chris didn't say what resolutions he'll run, so I'll ask him to go with 1280x1024 up to as high as he can.
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post #19 of 28
9/26/05 at 6:13am
With all due respect ... not fair? That is the whole point here. The card's capabilities. FWIW, even at 1600x1200 in the above comparison, the CPU is still the major bottleneck for the 7800 series. Notice the lack of gains for the GTX in SLI. That is because the two cards can not really do any more than one can due to the other limiting factors. Even at 1280x1024, the 6800Ultra is still bottlenecked by the CPU. It is 1600x1200 before the 6800Ultra shows any signs of GPU stress, and as mentioned before, the GTX is still not stressed even at 2048x1536.
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post #20 of 28
9/26/05 at 6:38am
I posted those particular benches to emphasize the effect of the Z-culling limit on the NV4x series. All of the other benchmarks show the consistent and measurable drop in frame rate from 1024x768 to 1600x1200, with an even greater drop after 1600x1200. Any of these benches shows it is not CPU limited, but GPU limited.

The HL2 benches I gave show that the 6800U SLI and the 7800GTX SLI is CPU limited, until after 1600x1200, when the GPU gives out for the 6800U SLI. With the exception of HL2, none of the others are CPU limited, with even the 7800GTX SLI dropping in fps between 1024x768 and 1280x1024.

Hopefully I'll get more confirmation tomorrow night.
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