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Phillips Warranty Issue on NP5670 (Long but I really need help)

post #1 of 36
10/27/05 at 6:00pm
Thread Starter 
First let me introduce myself, I'm a college student at VA Tech and although I've never posted or registered I've found this site to be a great source of information since I got my Sager 2 years ago. Now to my problem...

Recently while I was playing Battlefield 2 the screen faded to white so I immediately powered off the computer. When I tried to turn it back on again, it wouldn't...no BIOS, no XP loading, not even the typical 'beep' that it used to make. Called Sager, they said it was in the Extended Warranty from Philips. Talked to Philips, they paid for shipping the box out (in previous repairs I had to pay to ship it from VA to CA so Sager could fix it, and they paid for shipping back) so I was thinking this was an improvement. WRONG, a week later Philips calls me up and says that my problem is not repairable and that they do not replace Sagers with Sagers, instead she will find an "equivalent" model from Toshiba she tells me. At this point I'm mad at a) Sager for partnering with a company that does not replace it's own products, and b) and this woman for suggesting such an idea. I mean if I wanted a Toshiba or a Sony or something, I would have purchased it to begin with. So I immediately call Sager to complain and speak with someone named Brian who basically explains the financial reasons why they would want to not replace my Sager with another one and that there is nothing Sager will do. Well obviously they can get a Toshiba cheaper than a Sager (and in my opinion there's a reason for this), thanks Brian but I'm not an idiot Philips then calls me back a couple hours later tellling me I can have an Acer TravelMate 8103WLMi, or I can have $1599 (a little more than half of what I paid for my NP5670). I won't go into an item-by-item comparison on the laptops, but the Acer is a 1.86GHz Pentium M with 128MB ATI Radeon Mobility X700 vs. my 3.06GHz Pentium 4 with 128MB ATI Radeon 9000. I've never been impressed with the Acer brand name, but if someone out there can prove it's a better computer then I'll listen.

Now my question to everyone reading this, has anyone else had to deal with this nonsense? and what would you do if you were me? I'm required to have a laptop for the engineering program here, but like most anyone with a Sager I love playing computer games too. As I already said I really don't care for their offer, but I also think I am entitled to much more than $1599 in the first place.

Please no offers to sell me your laptop (unless it's still brand new in the sealed box) because I've had so many problems with this Sager that I wouldn't want to inherit anyone else's problems. I can't find a copy of the terms of the Phillips Warranty everywhere and I'm unsure what my rights here are in this. Can I go over this woman's head and work them up to a more reasonable sum of money or what?

Sorry this was so incredibly long, and I'm not looking for sympathy I just want advice on what you would do if you were in my shoes.

-Wesley

(edit: mis-spelled Philips)
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post #2 of 36
10/27/05 at 7:10pm
If that is the only way out, I'd take the money and think of GF7800 coupled with P-M. I know what they are offering is low... but consider depreciation as well, but you can bitch and I am sure it will help
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post #3 of 36
10/27/05 at 7:41pm
You could always try contacting your local Better Business Bureau and Attorney General's office and see what they might be able to do for you.
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post #4 of 36
10/27/05 at 8:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by VT Nerd
First let me introduce myself, I'm a college student at VA Tech and although I've never posted or registered I've found this site to be a great source of information since I got my Sager 2 years ago. Now to my problem...

Recently while I was playing Battlefield 2 the screen faded to white so I immediately powered off the computer. When I tried to turn it back on again, it wouldn't...no BIOS, no XP loading, not even the typical 'beep' that it used to make. Called Sager, they said it was in the Extended Warranty from Phillips. Talked to Phillips, they paid for shipping the box out (in previous repairs I had to pay to ship it from VA to CA so Sager could fix it, and they paid for shipping back) so I was thinking this was an improvement. WRONG, a week later Phillips calls me up and says that my problem is not repairable and that they do not replace Sagers with Sagers, instead she will find an "equivalent" model from Toshiba she tells me. At this point I'm mad at a) Sager for partnering with a company that does not replace it's own products, and b) and this woman for suggesting such an idea. I mean if I wanted a Toshiba or a Sony or something, I would have purchased it to begin with. So I immediately call Sager to complain and speak with someone named Brian who basically explains the financial reasons why they would want to not replace my Sager with another one and that there is nothing Sager will do. Well obviously they can get a Toshiba cheaper than a Sager (and in my opinion there's a reason for this), thanks Brian but I'm not an idiot Phillips then calls me back a couple hours later tellling me I can have an Acer TravelMate 8103WLMi, or I can have $1599 (a little more than half of what I paid for my NP5670). I won't go into an item-by-item comparison on the laptops, but the Acer is a 1.86GHz Pentium M with 128MB ATI Radeon Mobility X700 vs. my 3.06GHz Pentium 4 with 128MB ATI Radeon 9000. I've never been impressed with the Acer brand name, but if someone out there can prove it's a better computer then I'll listen.

Now my question to everyone reading this, has anyone else had to deal with this nonsense? and what would you do if you were me? I'm required to have a laptop for the engineering program here, but like most anyone with a Sager I love playing computer games too. As I already said I really don't care for their offer, but I also think I am entitled to much more than $1599 in the first place.

Please no offers to sell me your laptop (unless it's still brand new in the sealed box) because I've had so many problems with this Sager that I wouldn't want to inherit anyone else's problems. I can't find a copy of the terms of the Phillips Warranty everywhere and I'm unsure what my rights here are in this. Can I go over this woman's head and work them up to a more reasonable sum of money or what?

Sorry this was so incredibly long, and I'm not looking for sympathy I just want advice on what you would do if you were in my shoes.

-Wesley
I WOULD RAISE HELL WITH PHILIPS!!!

Here is what their policy states:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Correction WARRANTECH -NOT - PHILIPS POLICY


A laptop/notebook covers the following components if purchased at the same time as the laptop/notebook: all internal components, keyboard, mouse, speakers and one external drive. All other peripherals such as monitor, scanner, docking stations, etc. require a separate peripheral contract.

This Plan will furnish labor and replacement parts necessary to maintain your covered product in good operating condition as specified in the terms of this Plan. If service is needed because of product failure during normal usage, the Administrator has the option to repair or replace the defective product with a product of like kind and quality. A replacement part may be new or reconditioned of like kind and quality and may cost less than the original product purchased. No charges or refunds will be made based on the replacement product cost difference. Technological advances may result in a replacement product with a lower selling price than the original product. The most we will pay on any single repair or replacement is the price you paid for the product. If we replace the product in its entirety with a product of equal value, our maximum liability has been met under this contract and there will no longer be coverage under the terms of this contract. Replacement products will include a manufacturer’s warranty and the retailer has the option to offer an additional extended service contract on the replaced product.

If the product is not repairable and a replacement product is not available, we will refund to you the product purchase price and this contract will be invalid and all obligations satisfied. You may be required to ship or deliver the defective product prior to receiving reimbursement or a replacement product.
I'd surmise that someone is pulling a "fast one" on you! Look at the policy pages of PC Torque or Sager and you will find the Phillips Waranty policy.

The operative phrase is:

"the Administrator has the option to repair or replace the defective product with a product of like kind and quality"

Provide them with a copy of the invoice and demand the replacement system have "like" componets as the replacement unit. If they can't find a "Like" unit, then they are obliged to provide you a full refund of your purchase price under the last clause cited. Now, you may not get a Sager, but you may get a Dell or something like that which is closer than the Acer they offered.

Edited: Odd, the screen scrap that I have from over a year ago has very similiar verbage to what was quoted - or - maybe I need another set of glasses.
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post #5 of 36
10/27/05 at 9:32pm
Thread Starter 
G-Omaha you are a God...that is exactly the kind of contract I was look for to use as ammunition I just didn't think of looking at PC Torque's website because I bought it directly through Sager (I didn't find the excerpt you posted on Sager's website but maybe I didn't look hard enough). I will definitely raise hell now that I know the facts are on my side. The whole thing sounded fishy like they were hoping I'd be so desperate for a new laptop that I'd just go with whatever they gave me.
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post #6 of 36
10/27/05 at 9:34pm
Thread Starter 
On second hand, I looked a little closer at PC Torque's website and that excerpt is from a section titled "Warrantech Policies and Service Information". Above it there is a section titled "Philips Additional 2 and 3 year Warranties (for Sager Notebooks):". In that section I do not see such a reassuring statement as the Warrantech one provides. Now I wish I would have bought mine through PC Torque. Does anyone know where I can get the terms and conditions of the Philips Extended Warranty?

(edit: mis-spelled Philips)
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post #7 of 36
10/27/05 at 9:48pm
Thread Starter 
Alright, last post for a while, I found the terms and conditions of the Philips Magnavox Warranty but I need help deciphering them. They are located in their entirety at http://www.powernotebooks.com/info/philips_warranty.php but here are the important parts:

"9. UNAVAILABILITY OF FUNCTIONAL PARTS OR TECHNICAL INFORMATION. If We determine that We are unable to repair the equipment due to unavailability of functional parts or technical information, You are entitled to a comparable equipment replacement. In all cases, We will determine equipment comparability. Contractual obligations are considered fulfilled upon replacement or term limit. We reserve the right to offer a check for the current market value of the Product in lieu of service or replacement of the Product."


"13. BUYOUT. In the event We are unable to repair Your product(s) due to unavailability of equipment or parts, We at Our option may elect to buy out the Contract up to the original equipment purchase price, less any claims made."

As I understand those two statements, they can decide to give me the current market value or they can decide to give me my full purchase price. Regardless I plan on sticking to the fact that the offered laptop is not the same as the one I bought and furthermore that such a laptop cannot be obtained for $1600. I think they'll say too bad so sad, but that's going to be my next move tomorrow unless someone here has better advice.
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post #8 of 36
10/27/05 at 9:59pm
good luck man!
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post #9 of 36
10/28/05 at 12:09am
just read ur post...why can they nto send the laptop to sager and have it repaired by sager?

i mean ...sager should be able to repair it right?
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post #10 of 36
10/28/05 at 4:12am
Yes, I agree with Gary, I'd contact Sager and see if they can still get parts or even upgrade you to the 5690..that is still cheaper for Philips in the long run and you'd be getting a nicer upgrade.

Oh, Gary, long time..I see you are also having issues.. Good luck to them in trying to find a model to replace yours if it came to that..

I'd see if they'd go with maybe Dell, the 9300 isn't a bad book..that is if they completely refuse to replace it with a Sager.. They know nothing of spec's.. Pent 4 is not a Pent M they are completely different beasts.. X700 im sure they are offering merely on the 128mb parts match.. i'd find out if that card is as good or better then what you had..

Careful of what you say or agree to..don't let them corner you..if nothing else return here and everyone will give you their input...
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post #11 of 36
10/28/05 at 4:27am
Oh, and if they are pushing Acer's don't forget the ACER FERRARI ..It use to be a good gaming book..(not sure now, im not up to date as i once was heh)
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post #12 of 36
10/28/05 at 4:49am
Not to be a kill joy or anything like that... I know you feel you deserve retrobution (and you do) , but if it were me I would just take the money and save a little extra and get a new 5720 or 5710 and call it a day. Lets face it if your notebook was in perfect running order and you were going to sell it you probably wouldn't get $1600 for it (that is unless there are other upgrades that you haven't mentioned).
http://www.discountlaptops.com/index...&model_id=1302

http://www.pctorque.com/builder.php?type=90
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post #13 of 36
10/28/05 at 3:14pm
Well they did promise him a ''like'' model... PM chip isn't the same horse power.. AMD isn't the same chip either but it does have the horse power.. Still i think the 76xx series replaced the 56xx series.. see how much one of those cost and see if they will settle more money..1900-2000 should be close to a nice book for him.. and the least amount i'd settle for..but if the agreement says full refund as G said, I wouldn't settle for anything..fight tooth and nail.

Do you have your orginal agreement? That policy versus the one G shows could have changed from back when you bought it to what they are showing now..
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post #14 of 36
10/28/05 at 3:42pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Pandher
just read ur post...why can they nto send the laptop to sager and have it repaired by sager?

i mean ...sager should be able to repair it right?
I'm still not clear on what exactly broke, but that computer is a few years old now and whatever is required to fix it isn't available (or isn't available at a price they like) so that's why they aren't going the route of simply repairing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synergi
Yes, I agree with Gary, I'd contact Sager and see if they can still get parts or even upgrade you to the 5690..that is still cheaper for Philips in the long run and you'd be getting a nicer upgrade.

Oh, Gary, long time..I see you are also having issues.. Good luck to them in trying to find a model to replace yours if it came to that..

I'd see if they'd go with maybe Dell, the 9300 isn't a bad book..that is if they completely refuse to replace it with a Sager.. They know nothing of spec's.. Pent 4 is not a Pent M they are completely different beasts.. X700 im sure they are offering merely on the 128mb parts match.. i'd find out if that card is as good or better then what you had..

Careful of what you say or agree to..don't let them corner you..if nothing else return here and everyone will give you their input...
You're right, the woman that I've been talking to isn't very knowledgeable about laptop components and I'm sure she matched the 128mb ram between the x700 and my 9000. I looked at the Dell 9300 and it looks really nice but it's even more expensive than a new 7620 from Sager, which is the closest notebook in their product lineup to a 5670. I'm actually about to call the woman back at Philips and reject their offer and hopefully (yeah...right) get a little more money out of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by morpheoussc400
Not to be a kill joy or anything like that... I know you feel you deserve retrobution (and you do) , but if it were me I would just take the money and save a little extra and get a new 5720 or 5710 and call it a day. Lets face it if your notebook was in perfect running order and you were going to sell it you probably wouldn't get $1600 for it (that is unless there are other upgrades that you haven't mentioned).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synergi
Well they did promise him a ''like'' model... PM chip isn't the same horse power.. AMD isn't the same chip either but it does have the horse power.. Still i think the 76xx series replaced the 56xx series.. see how much one of those cost and see if they will settle more money..1900-2000 should be close to a nice book for him.. and the least amount i'd settle for..but if the agreement says full refund as G said, I wouldn't settle for anything..fight tooth and nail.

Do you have your orginal agreement? That policy versus the one G shows could have changed from back when you bought it to what they are showing now..
I definitely agree that I wouldn't get $1600 for it if I was selling it in perfect condition. However, I do feel that I am entitled to an amount of money that would enable me to buy basically the same laptop (in my opinion this means same manufacturer, same model if they still made it). Sager no longer makes the 5670 but as Synergi said the 76xx replaced the 56xx. The 7620 does have some upgrades: .4" bigger screen, newer video card with twice the memory, and a built in camera. Keeping in mind these upgrades, I don't feel that I'm entitled to the $2300 it might cost me to buy a brand new 7620 but I don't think those few upgrades are worth $700 out of my own pocket to cover the difference. If anyone knows the cost differential between a ATI Radeon Mobility 9000 w/ 128MB RAM vs. ATI Radeon Mobility X800 w/ 256MB RAM or 15" TFT UXGA(1600x1200) LCD vs a 15.4" WUXGA(1900x????) I'm sure there is a significant difference, but not $700 IMO (correct me if I'm wrong). I can see maybe $300-$400 difference between the new card and the slightly larger screen that I rightly should pay out of pocket so I don't think it's unreasonable to reply to their offer with a request for roughly $1900-$2000. Now if someone out there reading this knows the prices of those components and thinks I'm way out of line, please speak up because I'm not trying to defraud Philips, I'm just not going to let them defraud me.

The warranty that G-Omaha posted is as far as I can tell from a different extended warranty company called Warrantech. It's on PC Torque's website, not Sager's, and I bought my computer directly from Sager so I see no reason that warranty would apply to me. I found a website online with the full terms of the Philips warranty and it's in one of my previous posts in this thread, but the short of it is that they don't have a clause entitling me to a full refund of the purchase price like Warrantech's does. I'm not sure what paperwork the laptop came with when I bought it...a lot of that stuff is back at my parent's house (4 hours away) but I might have to get them to dig around for it and look it over. (that's if it even came with a copy of the Philips warranty terms... I'm not sure that it did). Regardless, it's still a valid point that the warranty I found online could have changed over 2 years and when I bought my computer it did include some kind of full refund clause.

Sorry this one was so long but I do appreciate all the good ideas. I'm calling Philips back now to reject their offer and hopefully negotiate a better deal, so wish me luck.
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post #15 of 36
10/28/05 at 3:47pm
both the x800 and x700 would run circles around the mr 9000
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post #16 of 36
10/28/05 at 3:55pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doggie96
both the x800 and x700 would run circles around the mr 9000
Any guess as to what the current market value of either card would be? or the difference in price between them?
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post #17 of 36
10/28/05 at 4:23pm
Thread Starter 
Update for any who care:

Just got off the phone with them and spoke with a superior and was told that make of laptop will not be an item of consideration and they only have accounts with Acer, Toshiba, Sony, and HP. Furthermore, under no circumstances will they provide me directly with a Sager (only way that will happen is if I get money from them and then buy it from Sager myself) because they don't have accounts with Sager. The end result is that they are going to attempt to find a computer by one of those manufacturers that has the Pentium 4 not the Pentium M and a 7200rpm hard drive of at least 60GB. I'm hoping that whatever they find is going to cost more than their previous offer, not less. I'll post another update (if anyone cares) when I get a call back from them in a little bit. Until then if anyone knows any superb computers by any of the manufacturers I just listed (I'm already looking now), post up so I have some figures for when they call back.

If you're going to buy a Sager....DO NOT get the Philips Extended Warranty. Buy from PC Torque or somewhere that offers warranties from different companies with terms and conditions of the contract that are in your best interest. Philips' is designed only to save them money with disregard for complete customer satisfaction.
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post #18 of 36
10/28/05 at 4:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by VT Nerd
The warranty that G-Omaha posted is as far as I can tell from a different extended warranty company called Warrantech.
Quote:
Well they did promise him a ''like'' model... PM chip isn't the same horse power.. AMD isn't the same chip either but it does have the horse power.. Still i think the 76xx series replaced the 56xx series.. see how much one of those cost and see if they will settle more money..1900-2000 should be close to a nice book for him.. and the least amount i'd settle for..but if the agreement says full refund as G said, I wouldn't settle for anything..fight tooth and nail.
I have edited my post for clarifications. If your unit originaly cost near or over $3,000, a replacement by a like Sager at $2,300 would appear to be reasonable to me. You will be forfeiting your "warranty money" in addition to the cost of the laptop and that had to be about $400. The basic 7620 (without O/S) is less than $1800 at PC Torque - very close to their settlement offer. Configure the Sager replacement that fits as close as possible to the old unit and tell Philips that is the expected settlement amount! I believe that the real issue is not that they don't have an account with Sager; but rather, that Sager will not provide them a "deep Discount" like the other vendors are likely to do. Keep Fighting......
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post #19 of 36
10/28/05 at 4:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Omaha
I have edited my post for clarifications. If your unit originaly cost near or over $3,000, a replacement by a like Sager at $2,300 would appear to be reasonable to me. You will be forfeiting your "warranty money" in addition to the cost of the laptop and that had to be about $400. The basic 7620 (without O/S) is less than $1800 at PC Torque - very close to their settlement offer. Configure the Sager replacement that fits as close as possible to the old unit and tell Philips that is the expected settlement amount! I believe that the real issue is not that they don't have an account with Sager; but rather, that Sager will not provide them a "deep Discount" like the other vendors are likely to do. Keep Fighting......
Well I did exactly that, but under Philips' terms and conditions, the decisions aren't mine to make. They determine what constittues "comparable equipment" and they determine "fair market value" of my 5670. My only real recourse is to demand arbitration, which would probably take place in Indinana at their headquarters and I simply can't miss school to go to arbitration where I would almost certainly lose. As much as I hate to say it, unless they cave (no chance) I will be building my own desktop and saying goodbye to Sager ownership, despite needing a laptop for classes.

I suspect you may be on to something about the deep discounts, but for the Acer Travelmate 8103 they originally offered me, I was able to find it online for $50 less than she said it was worth so I don't have any monetary evidence to back up my suspicions. As far as I'm concerned all the need is Sager's phone number to get me a new laptop, not an "account". But I did enjoy being told that because my Sager is a Tier II laptop I should consider it inferior to the products they are offering. If anyone thought that was true I don't think there would be a Sager forum like this, but whatever. End rant.

For an update on my progress, I just missed a call back from Philips and they left me a voicemail with their new offers:

Acer Travelmate 8103WLMi
HP Pavilion DV4170US (EC315UAR)
HP Pavilion PCHP Media Center ZD8220 (EC296UA)
IBM ThinkPad Commercial Center G41 (288679U)
$1599.00

They close at 5:00pm so now I have to look over all these computers and see what I think. Should I jump on any one of these? My girlfriend had an HP something desktop and I thought it was the slowest, most worthless computer I've ever used...it had to much preinstalled junk on there...anyway maybe HP laptops are good? Thanks for all the encouragement and advice, it's definitely appreciated.



(edit: added their offer details to the post)
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post #20 of 36
10/28/05 at 7:13pm
I still say if your going with their replacement ACER FERRARI is the only acer i'd consider..other wise..i'd follow G's advice.. I believe Ferrari is their top gaming notebook..and thats what you had..that you might want to point out..your book is a gaming book not a business applications book and IBM is just not going to cut it..
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