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More ghosting to come with the new GPUs?

post #1 of 12
12/17/03 at 8:55pm
Thread Starter 
I know this is a little early but giving the current ghosting problems with the available ATI 9600 and Nvida 5600. Do any of you think the situation will worsen with the upcoming GPUs. Assuming that the frames rates are going to increase I think it's safe to say that the ghosting problem is going to become more prevalent.
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post #2 of 12
12/17/03 at 11:40pm
The ghosting problems are the screen and not the GPU. The inherent "ghosting" effect you see is due to the fact they use a screen that has a 50ns write time. Anything over 25ns tends to lend itself to a bit of image ghosting.

The advent of new GPUs will not solve this as there is no solution other than a new screen with a lower write time. In fact, to me this is the only thing that Alienware did not, in my opinion, deliver on.

-Craig
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post #3 of 12
12/17/03 at 11:47pm
Thread Starter 
Exactly but with faster frames per second the new GPUs should have, it's really gonna be a problem. The LCD will have an even harder time keeping up. That's the point I was trying to make.
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post #4 of 12
12/17/03 at 11:50pm
I doubt it will have any harder time keeping up than any other brand. Your damned if you do and damned if you dont. Remember it's still a laptop at heart.
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post #5 of 12
12/18/03 at 12:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgpd7507
Exactly but with faster frames per second the new GPUs should have, it's really gonna be a problem. The LCD will have an even harder time keeping up. That's the point I was trying to make.
Ooops...I'm sorry bro. I read that post wrong. You are correct.

-Craig
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post #6 of 12
12/18/03 at 1:52am

ghosting and frame rates

Well guys actually the gpu or framerate wont make any difference in regards to the screen ghosting.

Suppose that your are playing quake and your flaming new ati card is pushing it at 250 fps at 1600 X 1200, but your screen have a max refresh rate of 60 hz at that resolution.

What the refresh rate means is the number of times that the screen is redrawn in a second, so if you are maxed at 60 hz that means that it can only display 60 fps .

With lcd screen what can actually make a difference in ghosting is its response rate, in other words the time that the pixel takes to switch from one color to another.

therefore ghosting won't improve or get worse with a new gpu since the response time is not related to software in any way.

hope this helps
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post #7 of 12
12/18/03 at 3:34am
Makes sense...
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post #8 of 12
12/18/03 at 4:48am
I am a little concerened about all the talk of ghosting. If you view the vid in this post you will see a 16 inch screen with no ghosting issues at all. Yet i hear people quoting specs that would suggest otherwise, are maybe these specs out of date? How do you know what screen they are using, where are you finding this info?



http://talknotebooks.com/showthread.php?t=10801
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post #9 of 12
12/18/03 at 5:11am
Thread Starter 
If that's the case then there would be no need to improve GPUs. Most tech sites say that the human eye can't perceive over 60fps. In all the benchmarks you see where Doom or some other game is cranking out 150-250 fps. If what your saying is true than how are they coming up with these numbers?

"Note: Do not confuse the refresh rate with the term "frame rate", often used for games. The frame rate of a program refers to how many times per second the graphics engine can calculate a new image and put it into the video memory. The refresh rate is how often the contents of video memory are sent to the monitor. Frame rate is much more a function of the type of software being used and how well it works with the acceleration capabilities of the video card. It has nothing at all to do with the monitor."

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/video/modesRefresh-c.html
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post #10 of 12
12/18/03 at 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgpd7507
If that's the case then there would be no need to improve GPUs. Most tech sites say that the human eye can't perceive over 60fps. In all the benchmarks you see where Doom or some other game is cranking out 150-250 fps. If what your saying is true than how are they coming up with these numbers?

"Note: Do not confuse the refresh rate with the term "frame rate", often used for games. The frame rate of a program refers to how many times per second the graphics engine can calculate a new image and put it into the video memory. The refresh rate is how often the contents of video memory are sent to the monitor. Frame rate is much more a function of the type of software being used and how well it works with the acceleration capabilities of the video card. It has nothing at all to do with the monitor."

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/video/modesRefresh-c.html
They get those FPS numbers from the game itself telling them how many FPS the video card is generating...just as you posted.

There is a difference between 60fps and 120fps. No question about it. Much like the unaudible frequencies that a good speaker puts out. You can't hear them but they add to the overall ambient sound of the source.

-Craig
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post #11 of 12
12/18/03 at 1:18pm
thats true there is a difference between 60 fps and 120 fps.

But this differences are not really noticeable to our eyes they have more to do with the responsiveness of the game to our mouse movement. Because a higher fps will make the game analize our moves more times in a sec thus making the engine more reactive to it.

But if the display is redrawn 60 times in a sec then it can't display more than that number of frames in the same second :P
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post #12 of 12
12/18/03 at 9:10pm
In fact, our eyes being "leveling off" closer to 200fps. Take a pencil...or your finger for that matter and wave it really fast in front of your tv or monitor. Even at 85hz refresh, you can cleary see a your finger moving in an almost frame like matter. Do it against a non-electricaly timed background (wall, duh) and you it will seem much smoother. This is due to your eyes in fact "clocking" faster than the monitor...something we see in a car wheel. As the wheel turns faster, it begins to look as if its going backwards, then forwards...then backwards again. Like audio, its similer to "Alias Frequencies" with digital encoders.

We make GPUS that can push 300fps becuase what happens when the scene gets graphically intense? should It lower to 10 fps, or should it draw from that big reserve of "lost frames" and keep it steady? While in the end were limited by the end medium (the display) the sources output is still a big issue.
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