Production and Recording

Ok After glancing back over this I realise it probably goes into more detail than you were expecting, I guess the question is, how good are you looking to get of a recording? If you are looking for a semi decent recording it will take a bit of investment probably, not only in interfaces, but also mics, cables, stands, etc, and time. If it is a one shot recording it may actually be cheaper to pay someone to record it for you that has a home studio or rent mics and the like instead depending on your skill level.

Well the interface is only part of the equation when referring to recording music. Mics are another large part to keep in mind. Recording anything even Semi-Professional gets real expensive real quick, and trust me, as good as the Mackie Pres are, there are much better(And much more expensive) out there. That being said I love the Onyx pres myself, and my next interface will probably be the Onyx400F at this rate

The Firebox is a good peice of equipment from what i have heard from the people I know that have used it, and I trust Presonus from other equipment by them(The ACP88 is great for theater work). HOWEVER, it wont be able to record close miked drums. Reason being is you can only have two mics going at any given time for it. So if you do something like this your best bet is to stereo mic the kit in general from a little ways away. Of course you will have to track everything in, which may be difficult, especially for younger players, since it can be strange playing along with playback instead of the band you are used to playing with and the band is used to adjusting to you, instead of the inflexible playback of an already recorded track.

Edirol is also a company with a decent reputation, I just am not as familiar with their interfaces, so I cant give you to much feedback on it. You didnt specify but I assume you are referring to the firewire interface(They have a USB with a similar model number as well). I tend to prefer firewire myself as a personal preference at any rate.

Keep in mind that eventually mics will be required and the type of mic you get will depend on what you are recording. Any mic can record anything, but some mics are decidedly better at certain things than others. Not real sure how good a quality you are going for so I can only help so much there. ALso if you are looking at recording try keeping an eye(Or ear in this case) out for acoustically dampened and isolated spaces you might be able to get in cheap. For instance there is a costume shop I use where I am currently on occasion for a very dead space. A Closet may work very well for this as well. Always easier to add effects in rather than take them out later.

There is a lot of information to take in all at once and it might help a bit if I knew if you are just starting out with no background/exp/knowledge in audio, or if you already have some from somewhere and how much you have. Helps save my fingers a LOT of typing and possibly some insult to your knowledge by not having to type out basic stuff, no offense intended at any rate

Seablade

Heh crap I just realised I had spoken with you in another thread I coulda referenced to get a better idea

Ill come back with another post tommorrow, but I need to get my 4 hours(If im lucky) of sleep for tonight.

Seablade

One of the first things to outline is how many inputs do I want to use and what are they going to be?


Simplest: 1 or two mics.................record the live performance.

Better:

Drums: A simple method would be 2- 3 mics, usually one dedicated to the kick, another to snare, another for toms/cymbals

Guitar, many options, usually mic the amp, but these days, dsp can do wonders, but for simple demos, just mic the amp

Same with bass


One mic for each vocalist

So no we have 7 to 8 mics/inputs.

WIth a mixer, you can do some eq tweaking, effects, etc...

But in the end, this set up is still for recording the entire band playing all at once.


Even better way (the pro way!)

Record each instrument/vocal separately....

You have more control over many things...acoustics, eq, effects, etc...

So essentially, you only need 1 input! lol Realistically....drums still need proper micing, instruments/vocals as well.

But please consider all these things!

note on mixers/interface.....yes, a firewire or pci may be the way to go. Even the new SB's are pretty good compared to those of yesteryear.

You should have some sort of mixer...mackie (yeah, the Onyx series!)makes a fine series of mixers with a built in fire wire option...direct to computer.

Other possible must haves...preamps...for mics, etc...

Then again, if you are just wanting to make quick demos.........you won't need a whole lot....oneor two mics....interface.....that's it!

oh yeah............everything that Seablade recommends is top notch!

Ok now that I have had time to go back and reread the other thread I might have a bette ridea where you stand, but it would still help to know exactly how decent of a recording you would want. That being said....

I agree with most of what Fachiro said(And thanks for the compliment), but a brief description of close miking...

By close mic I mean putting a mic right up on the drum itself to capture that specific instrument. The point is to get as much of that drum, tom, snare etc while getting as little of everything else as possible. Proper mic placement for this is considered a fairly advanced topic for recording, but requires usually at least one mic per piece sometimes more(often you will find 2 on snares, top and bottom, I have heard of others using 3 but i dont myself).

I think my suggestion would be, either close mic the entire kit if you have the money and/or resources, and in which case I would say you might be better off getting the small Onyx mixer(Not the interface, the mixer) with a firewire interface expansion card for it. This will give you a good amount of pres, direct inputs into your computer for all of them, and the ability to close mic your kit. It has the added bonus of being able to use it later on to mix the band if they start performing where it is needed, and does a decent job at that from what I have been told(I have been considering the 1640 for this reason as well).

Or if you have limited resources my honest suggestion would be a total of 4 mics, though 3 can do it as wlel, you just lose stereo imaging.

One Mic on the Kick, typically with good bass response. There are mics designed specificly for this purpose, almost certainly a large diaphragm dynamic in general though.

One mic inbetween the High-Hat and Snare. The point is to pick up both of these in the mic, and you will need a fairly accurate mic at higher frequencies to do a decent job of this. Either a good dynamic or a small diaphragm condenser with a capability of handling a decent SPL for this.

And Finally I would use Two mics above the kit, and record a stereo image for the kit that way. X/Y setup would work fine for this, if you need more explanation on this just ask. But if you are using this for a demo recording the kit in stereo definitly wont hurt.

The last option is to use a digital drum kit. While an acoustical CAN(If played and tuned correctly) give you a better sound a digital is both easier to record and only takes two inputs to record

For the larger close micing setups, oi that is a thread in itself. But as you can see even with 2 or 3 mics you wont be able to record all of them at once with the firebox. Most people use the firebox and similar interfaces to record digital instruments, guitars, vocals, or any combination thereof.

The other option not covered yet is to take a line out of a mixer if they perform live at a venue with an engineer. However the mix you get out of that wont be ideal as it will be a mix for the house(So without most of the acoustical noise) and you cant redo it if someone messes up. On the flip side sometimes you can get some really high energy performances that help the recording, so on occasion it can be good, but typically it isnt quite as good as recording via the other methods described here.

Seablade

And I just noticed you mentioned writing and wanting to record some of that, which I assume you are referring to music as opposed to voiceover style work. Which would lean towards a decent setup at least, what types of instruments do you use in your writing? Just a keyboard and synth? Or do you play a bunch?

Unlike Fachiro though I dont think a mixer is needed, it all depends on how you work. Of course that being said though I have one on my computer, but more from it was part of the interface I am looking at getting a midi control surface though to help me mix in the computer, just because i prefer the feel of a fader under my fingers to a mouse. Not needed though and again depends on how you work.

Also though Fachiro labeled it the Pro way, and most Professional studios will do this, tracking is not nessecarily always the best option. Some Pros will record the entire band at once and get a very good sound. It all depends on what sound you are going for and what you consider to be the most important part of it.

So much info that might need to be covered here

Seablade

Heh no prob

If you look hard enough you can come across the Onyx's for decent amounts of money. But you are right, they can be a good chunk of change. PM me and ill give you a place to call that I go through and have good prices on what they carry, if not the most outgoing of places If I remember right youll be able to get the mixer and card together for about the same price as the 1640 standalone most places, and before you ask they are legit, and only sell brand new out of the box stuff unless you specificly ask for something else, which they rarely have anyways Fachiro if you want the offer is open for oyu as well

SM48? Well keep it around I suppose if you hit a jam, I am not to familiar with them but if it is rated lower than the 58s which it looks to be, I am not sure I would use it myself.

Acoustic Guitar recording many people go for a LDC(Large Diaphagm Condenser) mic, which being a condenser needs phantom power, so if you go this route make sure your interface or mixer or whatever can provide it, for any condenser mic you might use.

Not sure what you mean about using Cubase for sends, but for effects, yes that could work fine, in fact it is what many people do at every level of the game.

I suppose if you want suggestions for a combination of mics and techniques these would be mine...

Your Recordings-
Guitar-
Large Diaphragm Condenser, Audio Technica makes some supposedly decent cheaper ones, the AT2020, and the little more respectable AT4040 for more money. I havent heard about them used on guitar yet though, but they do a decent job on Vocals is what I am told at least, so they could double for recording Vocals.

Keyboard- Go straight into your interface from the Audio Out if you use a full digital piano. Otherwise record Midi like you do so far, recording an acoustical piano correctly is just plain a PAIN to do at times.

Your Sons Band-

Vocals- Shure SM58s for stage use. You could also concievably record their vocals on these as well if you needed to. The 58s are pretty well your standard stage vocal mic, again used in all levels of the field. If you get the AT mic from earlier I would reccomend using that for recording the vocals though.

Guitar and Bass Amps - Shure SM57s. Another standard for stage use, and very flexible, you will often find them used on all sorts of amps as well as snare drums and other things. Be careful though as you will probably need to roll off the bass on the EQ when you use these.

Drums - Pick up a drum mic kit. I would reccomend getting something a little better than the Shure PG series kit, but price is a limiting factor. But the advantage of picking up the kit is typically it makes it easier for you to place the mics as half the time they will have rim clips with them, and most advertise what mic to use where for a decent setup. Other than that there is the suggestions from earlier on recording with 3-4 mics that I use on stage a lot with good results.

Combining those mics with a board like the Onyx is what I would consider a basic setup for yourself and the band you described (Obviously speakers and amps help as well that would allow you to both record demos and play live with reinforcement. Obviously you will be short an engineer, and please dont kid yourself, anyone can jump in and move things around, but it does take a bit of practice and a lot of work before you truly understand half of what is going on and get good at it. No offense intended here, again I am still not completly sure what type of experience you have with music technology but I am taking a guess So if you want to learn this stuff feel free, but be ready to do a lot of research and reading to start to understand it and a lot more practice before you actually get good at it. I still dont consider myself all that good at it and I have been doing it for 10 years at least(Cant remember the exact number off the top of my head). I can give you some good resources to start reasearching though if you want.

Hope this helps some, feel free to post up more questions. Number one rule in anything recording or engineering related. If you dont know ASK, dont just guess until you have a very good idea of what you are doing, and even then it is better to ask first.

Seablade

Oh yea you asked why they dont include the card with the board...

The reason is the Onyx is primarily considered a small format live reinforcement board. Recording through the card on it you will not have any EQ off the board, which is how many people prefer it because they prefer to do processing after they get a good clean track to start with. Primarily the board though was designed as a live reinforcement tool though instead of a straight recording tool, though it does a good job at both if you ask me. I can point you to an entire thread about that board if you want on another forum if I can still find it.

Seablade

You should try using what you currently have and make a rough recording. From there, you can see maybe what you need to improve on to get a better sound.

The thing is, A few months ago, I played a wedding gig and I recorded our performance, with the noise of about a 1000 people, using an hp laptop, CUbase SE, and a small sony stereo mic going into my echo indigo io (pcmcia card) during our sound checks (multiple ones!) I just adjusted the levels using the software mixer inputs on the hp. The house also recorded the entire performance through the house mixer. I was able to get a copy of the house recording, which was done on a cassette tape. My haphazard recoding actually sounded better! There was all the crowd ambience so it sounded like a live recording, but the fidelity was much much better. That was a cool gig. I brought the hp for recording, a Dell 9200, and a keystation 61 es. I played the EWSilver vst edition grand piano and strings off the Dell without a hitch for a two hour set, and someFM7 DX electric piano too. There were some kids in the audience and some came up to me during a break and asked if I had Counter Strike!