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Sager's response to 5720 headphone problem

post #1 of 40
1/25/06 at 10:30pm
Thread Starter 
Sager sent the following response after examining my 5720 with the headphone overamplification/hiss problem.

Quote:
Here is the update to you on our work on your laptop regarding your complaints about noise when the system is in operation. Our examination of the unit revealed that the noise it generated when in operation was well within industry standards for laptops and within Clevo’s (our original design manufacturer) and Sager’s normal specs. However, we did try some alternative solutions provided by Clevo in an attempt to further reduce noise. From our work on the unit, it appears these alterations have made little to no difference in operating noise, and we have exhausted what we can reasonably do to address your complaints. If you like, we will refund your purchase price for the unit. Or, if you prefer, we will send it back to you with the understanding that nothing further can be done to reduce operating noise, as for the screen fade dark area, we can't found it any abnormal, if you are referring to the display background is not evenly compare to the whole display then that is normal..

If you decide want refund the unit, please sent back the rest of the items, then will credit back to PC TORQUE , then they will refund you after they got our credit to PC TORQUE.
In other words, the 57xx line has a known problem that Clevo ignores and sends anyway without informing the buyer. Don't businesses usually get sued for doing this?

Quote:
... the noise it generated when in operation was well within industry standards for laptops ...
What industry standards? I'll have to find these and look them up. I have a hard time believing that the loud hissing in this $2,200 notebook computer is acceptable when a ultra-cheapo computer from Bubs produces no hiss.
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post #2 of 40
1/25/06 at 10:36pm
I think that's total BS, my ZD7000 had perfect internal sound, no hiss, not too quiet, nothing. For the 5720 I bought an external soundcard and I like it so far... But they definately should look into another line of integrated sound systems for clevo, as the ones they have now SUCK. Industry standards is a poor excuse for poor quality.
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post #3 of 40
1/25/06 at 10:45pm
Thread Starter 
I don't think the audio chip is the problem. This because the other audio jacks produce no audible hiss or show any signs of overamplification.

This is actually also a health risk. Ear damage is a possibility if I have my speakers at a reasonable volume and then I plug in headphones.

I'd appreciate if anyone can direct me to the "industry standards" of signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) for headphone jacks. I'm looking too.
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post #4 of 40
1/25/06 at 11:36pm
Its not just the 5720 but it's also prevalent in the 9xxx series as well. Looks like its a Clevo issue across their entire line.
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post #5 of 40
1/25/06 at 11:49pm
Thread Starter 
I sent the following reply to Sager, and I'm posting it here for public access:

Quote:
David,

You say that the noise generated is within industry standards. Please direct me to the documentation of those standards as well as Clevo’s standards and Sager’s own technical specifications. If you want to look at signal-to-noise ratios (SNR), then Realtek itself takes pride in the ALC880’s exceptional performance in this area. This is carried into three of the audio jacks on the Sager 5720, but why was this quality neglected on the headphone jack?

I think that you do not understand the problem here. I can plug any pair of headphones into any of the three audio jacks (excluding the headphone jack) and I get absolutely no hiss, but very reasonable audio quality and a decent volume level. But if I plug into the headphone jack, then I get a very loud hiss, and extremely high output volume. Because of this, the system volume has to be adjusted to very low levels in order to avoid ear damage from the high volume of the headphone jack. The difference is an adjustment of more than 80%. The extreme volume of the headphone jack would seem a safety risk. And you’re telling me that this is acceptable to Clevo and Sager?

How did you examine the notebook? What “alternative solutions” did you try? What do you mean by “what we can reasonably do”? What solutions did you not try because you thought them unreasonable?

I don’t see why you can’t make an audio line the same as the other jacks, but make it disable the speakers like the headphone jack should do. This seems so simple, but for some reason, the Sager 5720/Clevo M570A can’t do it.

If you continue to sell the Sager 5720 without fixing the obvious headphone jack problem, then you should explain the problem to prospective buyers lest they be deceived, like I was, to think that the 5720 will produce acceptable headphone audio. Or else package an external soundcard (like the Audigy) as part of the regular purchase price.

In the last several hours, I have done a lot of research on the Realtek ALC880 and have read many favorable reviews. Especially interesting is this review that clearly rates the “front” audio jack with very good results. All of the other computers and motherboards that use this same audio chip do not have the same problems as the Clevo M570A. Thus, the simplest logic would say that something is wrong with the M570A.

The ALC880 works by feeding output audio through an amplifier to each analog audio connector. Since the ALC880 produces acceptable audio through three analog connectors, simple logic would again say that there is a problem with the fourth connector, and that the problem lies in its own amplifier. This is perfectly consistent with the findings that the headphone jack is overamplified.

I’d like to think that Sager is more committed to quality products than what I have seen thus far.

I await your response.

Daniel J. Lewis
Yes, I know that is harsh. But the one thing that boils my blood more than anything is compromise.
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post #6 of 40
1/26/06 at 12:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJosephDesign
I sent the following reply to Sager, and I'm posting it here for public access:



Yes, I know that is harsh. But the one thing that boils my blood more than anything is compromise.
Hell yeah, you tell em.
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post #7 of 40
1/26/06 at 12:38am
Didn't seem harsh to me. Seemed very logically sound to me (but I'm not a sound expert, so that might not mean much).

My emails are generally of the same type- I try to explain the problem as best I can and ask questions if possible for a resolution. The answers are generally fairly short, substandard and make me feel as if they're not even reading the entire email. But that's just my observation/feelings from my time speaking w/ Sager. Hopefully you'll have a much better response.
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post #8 of 40
1/26/06 at 4:43am
OK Dj, you win. This is BS!!! I just sent this:

the list grows every day. Horrible hiss sounds through y headphones. Totally unlivable. My second wireless card, supposedly a centrino god, fails to connect when my 20$ pcmcia card works great. My CD Burner makes more cup coasters than cds. The keyboard feels more and more loose each day. The mousepad is all but useless much of its supposed functionality does not , function that is. There is also the mystery middle key that apparantly does nothing. The build quality is somewhat cheap but I thought I could live with that, but it really worries me now. Whats Next? I want to return your product as I find I can no longer accept the ever growing list. These each alone would not be a deal breaker but together they are. They are also an indicator of possible issues to come, I dont have money to throw away.

I am sorry, I wanted to love this machine. It just does not give love back. I need a reliable product, my machine is my business and my life.
I expect phone and e-mail contact/comfirmation with a RMA # within 24 hours as is promised in the purchase guarantee.

Sincerely

Jon
Network Administrator

This may very well fly as far as pigs can....but we will see. At least it lets them know that people are very not happy and groups of not happy people atrract lawyers. I am not a litigious person, but at this rate a class action suit could be in the makings.

And that is HARSH.

hope i dont upset any of the users here that I have enjoyed working with. I wanted a semi-godlike machine and thought I did, till we began to pull back the curtain..... (
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post #9 of 40
1/26/06 at 9:22am
I've had this hiss in my D470K, 4750, since I had it and people told me it was "just the way it is." They really are sub-par in the area of sound IMO.
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post #10 of 40
1/26/06 at 11:28am

Hissssssss

I have been using my headphones through the audigy card so I had not heard the terrible hiss yet. Last night I didn't feel like plugging in my powered headphones or getting the card out of my booqbag in my car. So, i just plugged in some regular headphones into the headphone jack. It is pretty bad....
You can play loud games that drown out the noise. But, for music or movies it just doesn't work.
Thankfully I almost always use speakers or the audigy card.

--K1tty
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post #11 of 40
1/26/06 at 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by doc_simple
I am not a litigious person, but at this rate a class action suit could be in the makings.
Me, neither. And I don't think the majority of the forum members here are. But service has went straight in the toilet (or has it always been that way?) You want to see grumpiness, browse around the 8790 Support forum. I would've thought they would've learned with the 8790 that they should square future products away a little better before release.

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post #12 of 40
1/26/06 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by doc_simple
OK Dj, you win. This is BS!!! I just sent this:

the list grows every day. Horrible hiss sounds through y headphones. Totally unlivable. My second wireless card, supposedly a centrino god, fails to connect when my 20$ pcmcia card works great. My CD Burner makes more cup coasters than cds. The keyboard feels more and more loose each day. The mousepad is all but useless much of its supposed functionality does not , function that is. There is also the mystery middle key that apparantly does nothing. The build quality is somewhat cheap but I thought I could live with that, but it really worries me now. Whats Next? I want to return your product as I find I can no longer accept the ever growing list. These each alone would not be a deal breaker but together they are. They are also an indicator of possible issues to come, I dont have money to throw away.

I am sorry, I wanted to love this machine. It just does not give love back. I need a reliable product, my machine is my business and my life.
I expect phone and e-mail contact/comfirmation with a RMA # within 24 hours as is promised in the purchase guarantee.

Sincerely

Jon
Network Administrator

This may very well fly as far as pigs can....but we will see. At least it lets them know that people are very not happy and groups of not happy people atrract lawyers. I am not a litigious person, but at this rate a class action suit could be in the makings.

And that is HARSH.

hope i dont upset any of the users here that I have enjoyed working with. I wanted a semi-godlike machine and thought I did, till we began to pull back the curtain..... (
I ordered my 5720 last Friday and it's in the build phase now... If I had read this post before I ordered, I might have reconsidered...

I hope I'll be happy
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post #13 of 40
1/26/06 at 2:31pm
I dont have any HISS in my 5720 ??
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post #14 of 40
1/26/06 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalpunk
I've had this hiss in my D470K, 4750, since I had it and people told me it was "just the way it is." They really are sub-par in the area of sound IMO.
This hiss in the 4750 is nothing compared to the hiss from chip used in the 5720/9750.

With that said, I bought a pcmcia card and moved on. No sense in making myself miserable over something that was easily solved.
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post #15 of 40
1/26/06 at 3:10pm
man what exactly are you trying to get?

It seems that sager has made a great effort and a reasonable resolution for your case.

Read all the pass history of sager find me another clevo reseller that goes out of their way working with clevo to solve as much issues as possible.

Clevo designed and manufactured these units, if clevo can't provide sager a fix what can they do? a least they do go out of their way for their customers.

Again I have never seen any other clevo reseller do this, while others do take credit of sager as their own….

Plus with all the extra functions packed into these Clevo designed units vs. any other I would be more shocked if it has no minor annoying issues at all.
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post #16 of 40
1/26/06 at 3:18pm
well, many will disagree with me but last night my frustration level went through the roof. A couple of drinks later......

This is my 3rd, or maybe 4th, full reinstall of windows. trying to get the machine to perform as it should. I bought a 7800 Go GTX only to find it underclocked. The build quality of the 5320 was so nice that I assumed it would be the same for the 5720 and its just not. I keep getting error messages and its starting to scare me.
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post #17 of 40
1/26/06 at 3:18pm
this problem seems to happen on the new powerbook also

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=29259
http://powerbookdefect.info/
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post #18 of 40
1/26/06 at 3:52pm
Thread Starter 
That's a different problem—even worse than Sager's/Clevo's problems.
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post #19 of 40
1/26/06 at 4:01pm
For all of you with the hissing problem:

Does the hiss actually change or sound different depending on what you are doing with the system (i.e. loading an app, moving the mouse, whatever)? If so, then you are actually hearing interference from the CPU and/or hard drive. This is just caused my poorly shielded components. I've heard this myself on my 4780 but I get around it by using SPDIF.

I actually read an article a year or two ago about how someone was actually recording that noise and graphing it on one of those spectrum things. They were actually using the graphical waveform of the noise to show when the CPU was idling (NOOP instructions), and doing other basic assembly-level tasks. It was very interesting. But once again, this problem seems to be about quality control; if I am assuming correctly.
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post #20 of 40
1/26/06 at 5:03pm
Thread Starter 
The hiss does not change with computer activity. The IrDA port does interfere with the headphone jack, but simply disabling IrDA in Device Manager resolves the cricket noises.

If I listen really close with a great pair of headphones, I can bearly here some hard drive or CPU interference. But not only is this hard to hear over the loud hiss, but it is also so faint that I would not have noticed if I wasn't looking for it.

Again, I wonder if even this interference would exist if the headphone jack wasn't so overamplified.

I've ruled out interference causing the hiss after some simple testing. On the 5720, the headphone jack is right next to the microphone jack, and there circuit pathways also seem similar. Through Realtek HD Audio Manager, I can map the mic jack for headphone output, and there is no hiss (but it doesn't disable the internal speakers). Additionally, the volume level is acceptable through this jack.

BTW, the 9750 has this same problem plus a high-pitch sound through headphones. (AiG just bought a 9750.)
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