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The browser war - Page 2

post #21 of 47
10/2/06 at 12:38am
I have both.
Both are good, period.
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post #22 of 47
10/2/06 at 12:56am
I've been using IE7 for the past month or two and have absolutely NO complaints at all.

Works fine, looks good, and has tabed browsing now.
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post #23 of 47
10/2/06 at 1:42am
wow, after reading this, opera may be getting installed ... DOWN WITH IE!!!!!
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post #24 of 47
10/2/06 at 1:48am
and no more than a few minutes later, I am posting this on opera... not to bad so far. Time to play with it!
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post #25 of 47
10/2/06 at 1:51am
Who says IE is the most useful? IE is one of the ONLY browsers that doesn't do CSS properly; requiring you to insert a plethora of workarounds every time you try to code a simple code.
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post #26 of 47
10/2/06 at 1:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by .PoNeH
Who says IE is the most useful?

Nobody has. IE has the largest market share.
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post #27 of 47
10/2/06 at 3:32am
I agree with that! But why? Because it comes with the OS. The point of this thread isn't which is the most popular, but which is the best browser out there. And Firefox, Opera, and many others put IE to shame.
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post #28 of 47
10/2/06 at 9:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whackamac
and no more than a few minutes later, I am posting this on opera... not to bad so far. Time to play with it!
hope your browsing experience is better than your old browser.
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post #29 of 47
10/2/06 at 11:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by .PoNeH
I agree with that! But why? Because it comes with the OS. The point of this thread isn't which is the most popular, but which is the best browser out there. And Firefox, Opera, and many others put IE to shame.

No. The question in the original post is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGEE1212
which browser do you guys use the most?

And seeing as IE has a 90% market share, I'd probably have to predict a majority of people use it.
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post #30 of 47
10/2/06 at 11:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nttdemented
^^You sir just took the words right out of my mouth. Also from a technical standpoint any kind of coding, developing etc is spent mostly fixing up bugs and making things work the way you the developer wants them to, that is what coding is all about. If you don't like fixing bugs you should't have chosen to become a web developer.

I myself am an MIS and I chose to be an MIS because I love doing business, I love computers and I absolutely love playing around with new features and technologies. But also as an MIS I have to take care of every user's problems almost 75% of the time, the other 25% of the time I can actually dedicate to playing around with technology and implementing changes.

While I respect your opinion, it is much easier to say than do in practice. Please allow me to explain why.

If you design for Firefox (or Opera, Safari, what have you) then use the many known work arounds, you will (probably) have a non-standards compliant site, but it will work. It looks (or at least, it should within reason) like you want it to in each browser, and, although it took some work, is a reality.

However, if you design for IE then fix for the rest of the browsers, you will have to use workarounds that do not exist for at least 4 separate browsers. These workarounds will not exist because the browsers are standards compliant (mostly at least) and workarounds do not exist in standard compliance, because they shouldn't be needed. That is indeed the definition of standards.

Therefore, you will have to either waste time fixing your design for IE or change your design to a less complicated design. And when IE6 doesn't support commonly used things such as the :hover pseudo-class on non anchored elements or max/min width/height, workarounds are simply inevidable.

I hope this explains a bit why we designers hate IE, and make a conscious choice to design for other browsers, then fix for IE.
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post #31 of 47
10/2/06 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WackyT
And seeing as IE has a 90% market share, I'd probably have to predict a majority of people use it.

That is just 90% of the population that hasn't been properly educated on browser technology and issues. Plus I bet they are counting every operating system with it installed. Not actual users. Companies are shady with their figures like that. I still have IE installed so they are probably counting me too, though I have erased all icons to it but one for that one site that requires it.
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post #32 of 47
10/2/06 at 12:01pm
Really doesnt matter what the original poster had in mind to me...this post should be about why you think the browser you use is the best or most practical...of course IE has the majority of the market...we all can agree on that...
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post #33 of 47
10/2/06 at 1:20pm
Well, seeing as this has turned into just another "Firefox rulez! IE sux!" thread on the web, I'll be saying goodbye to this one.
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post #34 of 47
10/2/06 at 1:33pm
I guess the majority of knowledgeable notebook forum users cant be wrong...

sry, had to
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post #35 of 47
10/2/06 at 1:40pm
Exactly, another one of the Firefox rules! IE sucks! thread because it is the truth. I am not trying to personally attack you WackyT. You have helped me out with a lot of issues so far and I really appreciate them.
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post #36 of 47
10/2/06 at 2:01pm
I really don't think this has turned into another of those threads, because I've seen them. This has (so far) remained rather civil. While I brought up different points from a developer standpoint, I really don't see too much of people not defending their points in a humane way.
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post #37 of 47
10/2/06 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kypen
While I respect your opinion, it is much easier to say than do in practice. Please allow me to explain why.

If you design for Firefox (or Opera, Safari, what have you) then use the many known work arounds, you will (probably) have a non-standards compliant site, but it will work. It looks (or at least, it should within reason) like you want it to in each browser, and, although it took some work, is a reality.

However, if you design for IE then fix for the rest of the browsers, you will have to use workarounds that do not exist for at least 4 separate browsers. These workarounds will not exist because the browsers are standards compliant (mostly at least) and workarounds do not exist in standard compliance, because they shouldn't be needed. That is indeed the definition of standards.

Therefore, you will have to either waste time fixing your design for IE or change your design to a less complicated design. And when IE6 doesn't support commonly used things such as the :hover pseudo-class on non anchored elements or max/min width/height, workarounds are simply inevidable.

I hope this explains a bit why we designers hate IE, and make a conscious choice to design for other browsers, then fix for IE.


I understand your point completely but standard's are one thing, what the customer wants is another. I had to hack around to get the software that my customer bought for his car dealership to work the way he wants it to when it was never intended to work that way. There are better solutions to the problem, like better software but the customer wanted to use this p.o.s. they call a dealer BMS because of price point so who am I to tell the customer that he can't use it because it doesn't follow proper standards if the technology to make it work exists.

It was a pain but I got it to run and work for him and everyone is happy, especially our T1 provider who had to sell us 4 full T1s to get this piece of crap to run at a decent clip. Saved a few bucks on the software but in the long run he'll be paying more for all the required T1s after first year of running this way.
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post #38 of 47
10/3/06 at 3:41pm
I don't think either is better. I use the right tool for the job. I have both IE and FireFox loaded. Example: News sites seem to load faster and are more responsive when I use IE ****on this particular machine****(let's not forget all the other software that can affect how a browser runs). Notebookforums seems to run faster for me in FireFox. The computer is a tool chest. I choose which one to use based on what needs to be done.
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post #39 of 47
10/4/06 at 12:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nttdemented
I understand your point completely but standard's are one thing, what the customer wants is another. I had to hack around to get the software that my customer bought for his car dealership to work the way he wants it to when it was never intended to work that way. There are better solutions to the problem, like better software but the customer wanted to use this p.o.s. they call a dealer BMS because of price point so who am I to tell the customer that he can't use it because it doesn't follow proper standards if the technology to make it work exists.

It was a pain but I got it to run and work for him and everyone is happy, especially our T1 provider who had to sell us 4 full T1s to get this piece of crap to run at a decent clip. Saved a few bucks on the software but in the long run he'll be paying more for all the required T1s after first year of running this way.

While your point is well noted, imagine if you had to hack the software differently for Linux, BSD, Windows, OSX, and Palm. And only one (for the sake of argument, let's call it..."Windows" ) had to have different hacks than the others. Would you design for Windows, then do specialized hacks that may or may not exist for the 4 others, or would you design for something else (let's call it "Linux" ) and fix it for the only other problem OS, which would be our hypothetical "Windows?"
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post #40 of 47
10/4/06 at 12:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kypen
While your point is well noted, imagine if you had to hack the software differently for Linux, BSD, Windows, OSX, and Palm. And only one (for the sake of argument, let's call it..."Windows" ) had to have different hacks than the others. Would you design for Windows, then do specialized hacks that may or may not exist for the 4 others, or would you design for something else (let's call it "Linux" ) and fix it for the only other problem OS, which would be our hypothetical "Windows?"


It makes logical sense to only fix for the ONE other OS that would need special attention. Then again its not an apples to apples comparison. Web pages are supposed to work with standards because the internet is sort of "open source" anyone should be able to use it regardless of what hardware or software they use. In the case of many enterprise applications they are designed to work with only one OS, Windows and there isn't much you can do about it. Unless you want to run Linux with VWMARE to be able to run that software you have that is designed to work with Windows.
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