Best "out of the box" distro - Page 2

The Samba team is actually very pro-Microsoft... at least from the standpoint of wanting to work closer with them. In case Microsoft closeness is some kind of measuring stick.

And actually free became an option for Red Hat, and was still turned down for the exact reasons that many are not happy with Novell, by agreeing to it you are giving the thought with your actions that there might be a problem. Red Hat decided to move behind its product in a somewhat more gutsy way, and thus far is probably doing nicely in the open source community at least because of this. Will it succeed in the business world as a result? Ill wait and see, much like you I would imagine. In regards to your 7 and 8, it was not just that it may have violated the text of the GPL, but rather the spirit behind the GPL that got them in trouble, even if they abide by the text. You see the mentions of the v3 being specifically changed to prevent this sort of option in the future for that reason. That being said though I think I agree with Linus in that v2 works fine and yes some people will not play by the spirit, but it gives them the option of choice which is what made the v2 so good. The ability to use it for any use is interesting. However even if the kernel stays under v2, the GNU componets that most of the OS use will become v3 most likely which will severely limit choices for companies like Novell or TiVo in regards to actions like this or using hardware to limit the ability to modify. As a result I haven't truly made up my mind on what to think of the Novell mess, other than to say it was a mistake, how bad of one I am still deciding. Since I don't deal with enterprise environments, and have no intention of returning to networking work to have to, it really won't affect me personally so much as I find Suse to be a bad choice for the personal desktop for most people, which should come as no surprise to anyone that reads these forums. Seablade

That one is open for debate I believe. While they may wish to have better interoperability, the impression I have gotten from my reading on things, especially revolving around the EU debacle, was that they wish to be given a fair chance to work with them yes, but not nessecarily become to involved. I am not sure they are Pro-MS from my reading(Though obviously I haven't been reading the SAMBA mailing lists) as much as pro fair chance from all involved companies. Seablade PS Considering the SMB networking is based entirely off of MS's NetBEUI products if I remember right, and the majority of it deals directly with MS's OS, there is only so much anti MS you can be there, when trying to promote interoperability between MS and other OS's

Theres that wonderful little misquoting thing that seablade mentioned. I never said ANYTHING about how I blame Novell. In fact, I dont blame them, but I'm doing the only thing I can to change their minds. I've stopped using their product. If enough people boycott in this fashion it might make Novell change their mind. Chances are small, but theres always a chance.

Microsoft has said that linux users are violating their "intelectual property" but they wont state exactly what that property is even when asked. MS has gone far enough to even say all linux users OWE them. (see the thread I made a couple weeks ago titled "Survival of the Linux") For all we know MS is saying linux stole something stupid like the Minimize, maximize, and close buttons at the top of the window. I think MS needs to tell us what we're "stealing" exactly and give us a chance to fix it (That is assuming that we are in fact really stealing something)

Now, record straight. I'm not happy with Microsoft. I dont trust this deal. I've been happy with Novell and Suse. Suse's my favorite linux distro. It always worked for me without trouble for me and I learned it well. The MS/Novell deal made me kind of angry. So I'm doing what I can to try to change Novells mind. Little things like this probably wont work, but I wont go down without trying something.

Now, I'll read through the remaining posts and use that lovely little edit button to make additions to this thread if I have anything else to say

This is what the friction of this thread boils down to, imo. Some of us have chosen to 'boycott' for better us of a word, because that's the best way we can respond. I really don't think there's been much of any misinformation in this thread, just a bunch of opinions (assuming we take out some of cjcox's over emotional responses).

Like it or not, the openSuSE team is caught up in this at it's core. Whether or not they deserve the criticisms is irrelevant... If I get screwed at a car dealership because of some lame policy the owner set I'm most definitely going to give the manager on duty a mouthful. Technically, it's not his fault, but he represents the business. Now I don't know how dependent/independent openSuSE is of Novell, but the perception is that they work closely together to achieve goals of mutual interest.

I strongly feel that it's up to the OSS community to resolve there 'mirky patent' issues. Bringing MS into the mix, imo, is a huge mistake. They have nothing positive to contribute when everything is said and done. Maybe some Novell exec will get a nice payday, but that's all.

bigtrouble77:I've been anything but emotional, trying to present a fair view rather than one based on the gobs of misinformation that is out there. I'm all for discussing the merits (or lack thereof) of the partnership. Especially if it clears up some of the misguided conclusions that people are coming up with that are based on misinformation.

And yes... I do believe that your opinion right now on the matter is based on a lot of misinformation.

You just don't get it... Just because we don't agree with you doesn't it me that we are all misguided. In fact, you are very much in the minority- not just here but in the whole OSS community. Nothing you've said so far has impressed me. You simply have your spin on the facts and have the arrogance to say that everyone else that doesn't agree with you is propagating misinformation.

I remember having a conversation like this several years ago with a Rambus zealot that tried so hard to convince me that the Intel/Rambus partnership was the best thing since sliced bread and that the early DDR results were entirely fabricated. I had to give up on the guy, but I did leave him with one final thought... Lets just wait and see. I'm leaving you with the same thing. In the mean time, I'm still going to direct people away from SuSE if they ask my advice.

-bt

While I have attempted to back up everything I've said with FACTS (not opinion), you have not even tried. That's my whole point. Your facts (as you call them) are pointing to the opinions of others who in turn aren't viewing the facts.... sheesh. Just because somebody you like says something doesn't make it true.

If you can back up your position with factual information... fine. I'm all ears. Don't take such a defensive position in lieu of trying to discover truth. Basically you're telling me... "I've made up my mind and I'll never change".... ok then. I guess there's no point discussing this further.

CJCox, are you saying that what I have said thus far is not true, or that I am not looking at factual information?

Most of what I have pointed out thus far is based directly off of Novell's actions or those of the FSF or those you labeled as 'madmen' which tend to be somewhat influential members of the open source community. Now whether that reputation and power is deserved or not is something else, doesn't really make a huge difference to be honest, even if we look at things objectively for a moment in regards to a migration away from Suse, or a dislike from them... Whether or not it is deserved aside for the moment, in this thread alone you have 5 or so primary participants. Out of this thread you have two people that dislike the distribution of Suse before this(But despite that I have seen no evidence of disliking the company), and one that was a strong supporter of Suse until this occurance. All three of them are now showing signs of aversion towards Novell, and as a result the disribtuion backed by them as well. As for myself, I had no love for Suse and thought it a poor distro nowadays when comapred to Ubuntu for the newcomer to Linux, but I also had used it for some time before Novell bought them, I had little trust for Novell in their entrance into the Linux world as I had used their netware products before and was far from impressed. At any rate my opinion of Novell had been slowly going up, even if my opinion of the distro was not changing fast after getting farther into linux than I was before, and I now have a lower opinion of them as a result of this decision. Even you I think are not happy with this desicion, even if you choose to support them for your own reasons.

So out of this thread, while definitly not an appropriate sample size, but a decent example to look into farther, we have the majority of the opinion is all against this decision. As a result I definitly would lean towards BTs original statement of a general feeling of aversion towards Novell being not far off the mark.

Now add on to this that Novell is looking at doing similar agreements now with other vendors has me even more worried about this personally...

http://www.linuxworld.com.au/index.p...59;fp;4;fpid;3

While I am sure you were aware of this already, many here may not be. On the flip side it is also important not to jump to conclusions, but based off the track record they built themselves with that one single decision, I do suspect I will not like the outcomes of these decisions very much.

Now because I have been downing Novell a LOT lately I will post something to evidence the topic we touched on of the Novell OpenXML in Openoffice that is a clear example of them getting slammed for something they are undeserving of this time around....

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS2133220131.html

That move was not in itself wrong, but did come about as a result of the move I do consider wrong and is being labeled as guilty by association. I read an article elsewhere that asked where Novell's PR people had gone announcing them so close together. While I understand that the OpenXML is not what people are taking it to be, many people do not and it seems to have been a bad PR decision to release news about it so soon. That however isn't that bad, but the first article I linked to however shows some real stupidity in their PR department in my opinion at the moment, making statements such as that after going through such a rough time for the MS one is kinda stupid if they wish to keep any trust in the outside (Of Suse) open source community.

Seablade

cjcox, Here's all I needed:
Steve balmer:
"We've had an issue, a problem that we've had to confront, which is because of the way the GPL (General Public License) works, and because open-source Linux does not come from a company -- Linux comes from the community -- the fact that that product uses our patented intellectual property is a problem for our shareholders. We spend $7 billion a year on R&D, our shareholders expect us to protect or license or get economic benefit from our patented innovations. So how do we somehow get the appropriate economic return for our patented innovation, and how do we do interoperability. The truth is, because of the complex licensing around the GPL, we actually didn't want to do one without the other.

"What we were able to craft, with a lot of hard work with Novell, was an agreement essentially where we would do the technical work in a variety of different areas to improve interoperability between the two environments. And we agreed on a, we call it an IP bridge, essentially an arrangement under which they pay us some money for the right to tell the customer that anybody who uses Suse Linux is appropriately covered. There will be no patent issues. They've appropriately compensated Microsoft for our intellectual property, which is important to us. In a sense you could say anybody who has got Linux in their data center today sort of has an undisclosed balance sheet liability, because it's not just Microsoft patents. Because of the way open-source works, there's nobody who's been able to do patent coverage or patent indemnification behind that."

My feeling is that Novell effectively marginalized the OSS community in an attempt to gain marketshare and the dialog above STRONGLY supports that.
Source:
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/m...asp?source=rss

I agree 100% with you. I don't think there's anything wrong with developing docx filters for openoffice. There's still a lot of details I'd like to know (will it be OSS?, can it only be used in SuSE openoffice?, is SuSE going to effectively fork openoffice?, can other distros use these 'filers' legally?, how are the filters going to be licensed?).

Based on the information I've read it appears legit. Problem is, I think this is only a small piece of the puzzle. I'm inclined to believe that this was strategically planned in an effort to create the presumption that this ms/novell deal is going to produce these types of results- an effort to garner some support and ease hostility. You have to admit, the timing is pretty convenient. Taking into account MS' track record, I think it's a red herring. Good news is that I'll need to use the filter if any clients start using docx.

Edit: I just read the article you linke to seablade. It says the 'translators' will be completely open so that's good news. We'll just have to wait and see if that's really the case.

From my experience Ubuntu and PCLinuxOS.

cjcox,
I thought you said you had direct contact with the samba developers... Can you clear up what happened here?
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?s...61221081000710

Uh Oh Cj.

Back to out of the box distros I "personaly" Like Unbuntu or Kunbuntu. I tried SuSE and had alot of problems with it on my laptop getting all the hardware to work.

Jeremy left Novell because he doesn't like the idea of trying to protect customers from big corporations that armed with patents. He believes it sets a bad precedence, thought this kind of stuff is typical. Jeremy now works for a company whose middle name is "patents". Jeremy has made a bad choice. The company he now works for is a much larger force for patents than Novell. While it is true that Novell owns more patents, ever since the SUSE acquisition, Novell hasn't been submitting new patents (perhaps a couple early on).... google on the other hand....

I guess you could say that not everyone on the Samba team thinks exactly alike. Also, I think Jeremy was getting tired of being ostracized for being associated with Novell, which apparently would not have been the case if Novell had made a patent deal with google instead of M$.

Oh... and google is a closed source company. Shoot they don't even publish a lot of their interface specs (I do realize they do publish their AJAX and older SOAP stuff... but not their Google Talk specs... for example).

Getting back on topic......

I have only really used Mepis, Suse (K)Uubuntu and found that as afar as out of the box goes then Suse was best followed by Mepis and then Ubuntu.

However, after a bit of tinkering to set the system up i found that i preferred Ubuntu by far.

naming just the distros xrchris mentioned... i'd have to rank:

1. ubuntu 6.06.1 -- great solid release from the ubuntu team. worked like a charm, a quick automatix later and you're in business
2. ubuntu 6.10 -- has bugs and the new technologies although great are not yet fool-proof. automatix2 is broken so getting in business is a bit more challenging than with 6.06
3. mepis -- based of the kubuntu platform so not many things changed, but it does suffer a horrible (HORRIBLE) memory leak (dont know if the latest beta fixed it) so that would create slowdowns in performance notm aking it very friendly
4. suse10.2 -- improvement over 10.1...such as a package manager that works. however the distro still has many unresolved issues.
5. suse 10.1 -- broken package manager that takes a hell lot of google and nerves to fix. not very friendly at all.

I just installed Ubuntu 6.06 on a 2gb USB PenDrive and managed to update it using Automatix2. Boy does this make things easier although i did learn more (and lose more hair) the conventional way.

Is Automatix2 is only broken for 6.10 as it seemed ok on 6.06?

Taken from the Automatix website.....

Automatix2 currently support i386 and AMD64 architectures for Ubuntu 6.06, Ubuntu 6.10 and Mepis 6.0.


What is broken about Automatix2 as i cant find it?