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Why Linux? - Page 2  

post #21 of 104
wait a minute........now lets understand this as far as home users whats most popular well windows.................and say if your a hacker or someone who wants to do a bad deed.....what hacker code are you going to use for an operating system well yes you guessed it a windows os. now lets try a new twist....lets say a linux based os was more popular then windows.......what would hackers do yep you guessed it make a hacker code for a linux based system......i dont always agree with what microsft does either but when alot of home pcs out there are based on windows.....and software companies talking games here....make there games to recognize windows what is a consumer suppose to do? i just saw a magazine article talking about windows based pcs and linux and apple os........and they all have weakness but out of those three which is most used today ? windows and which has more security holes yes windows
post #22 of 104

Oh sure we could always say Windows has the largest userbase. What more could you expect from a proprietary monopoly?
I call BS and it's a sorry excuse for the lazy, insecure coding practices performed by Microsoft developers, because they know no one will be looking over their shoulders.

Now the Open Source community on the other hand...
Sure I use Windows...for Gaming.
Game developers make games for the Windows Platform because that's where they're going to get their money, where the largest userbase is. Besides, Linux/Unix was made for server/enterprise solutions, & embedded systems. (and might I say they are slowly but surely dominating Windows in this area), and still makes one hell of a desktop.

Windows and Security in the same sentence makes me laugh, so I'll leave that alone.

As far as what is a consumer to do? That's your choice. But I think it's quite clear who has their users' best interests in mind, and _not_ their wallets.
post #23 of 104
Fact is - Windows is easier to use, is more user friendly, support more hardware without making you go through torture, even grandma's can use it, even n00bs can use it, more games...

I use linux for my "work" and connecting to my Unix server at university. I use windows for everything else...

Fact is (I repeat) - Linux has had plenty of time to make an impact...it has failed

Yes there will be hardcore linux users (I myself was considering a total switch but then I ran across BattleField 1942 ) but they are and will always be a minority unless Linux gets it act together and becomes more windows-like...

But if it does...then whats the point in being different? It will also become expensive (you have to pay developers...and getting companies to release their hardware information is no joke).

So instead of behaving like a balls out geek (which you very well may be) try to have a balanced and rational outlook on the world of computing...add some "reality" as seasoning...

This doesnt mean I like Windows

I actually like Linux better..but my mom, dad, brother, grandmom, aunt, uncle, sister, dog....all prefer windows...

I think Windows wins
post #24 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsminardi
Fact is - Windows is easier to use, is more user friendly, support more hardware without making you go through torture, even grandma's can use it, even n00bs can use it, more games...
It's a proprietary monopoly. It's _supposed_ to be easy to use, because they want Everyone to use it.

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Fact is (I repeat) - Linux has had plenty of time to make an impact...it has failed
I'd appreciate _Something_ to back that ridiculous statement up with.

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Yes there will be hardcore linux users (I myself was considering a total switch but then I ran across BattleField 1942 ) but they are and will always be a minority unless Linux gets it act together and becomes more windows-like...
You're saying you abandoned the thought of making the switch because of a game and expect someone to take you seriously?

Linux is barely organized chaos, and it's going to get where it's going, with or without people like you rooting for it. Like it or not, it is what it is. Don't use it if you feel so negatively towards it because of it's lack of games, lol

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So instead of behaving like a balls out geek (which you very well may be) try to have a balanced and rational outlook on the world of computing...add some "reality" as seasoning...
This coming from someone who bases his love for Linux around game and hardware support...
post #25 of 104
Thank you for the awe inspiring speech and advice
post #26 of 104
Yes, the advice that you so kindly took heed to.
Just as I thought, absolutely no facts to back up your opinions.
post #27 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeach
It's a proprietary monopoly. It's _supposed_ to be easy to use, because they want Everyone to use it.
It is easy to use...thats all that matters...next!

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I'd appreciate _Something_ to back that ridiculous statement up with.
How many people do you find using linux? I havent been to any university which recommends linux over windows. I will stand corrected when I find linux in every household...


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You're saying you abandoned the thought of making the switch because of a game and expect someone to take you seriously?
I dont expect anyone to take me seriously. They just do...dont be a wannabe geek - the attitude is wearying Games and fun software are a part of my life and those of 99% of the humans beings who use computers. Too bad Linux doesnt support them...even the games that it does support are far too much trouble to be worth it...

Quote:
This coming from someone who bases his love for Linux around game and hardware support...
All that I said comes from someone who has tried linux, couldnt get the functionality I wanted, stuck to using windows. I am sure a lot of people in the world out there are exactly like me...

If you can get my wireless card and touchpad to work - I salute you
post #28 of 104
To repeat "but it's a monopoly" is not equivalent to giving reason why windows (post 98) is a bad product.

The proclivity of windows-attacking viruses is also not the software's fault. That nobody bothers to code UNIX virus' is not a testament that UNIX is "better" in design, but rather one to the ubiquity of windows.

In the end, windows "won". Like VHS.

One can scoff at win users as noobs or gamers or whatever, but the fact is that linux is a geeky niche that will be slowly swallowed into obscurity. Apple at least has brilliant marketing.
post #29 of 104
Windows is built by a single company, and still now its ability to address and fix the problems in a very timely manner has been questioned.
Where as GNU/Linux has a central kernel and large number of distributions: Where in, the question of timely fixing of security issues has never been the issue. This simple generalization of security is all it takes to extinguish any comparison or arguement of product "quality".

Within the Unix-GNU/Linux we have grown to increase its stability.
Where as in the case of Windows,there is an aggressive community which is constantly _Trying_ to find bugs and security holes.
If a new bug or security hole is discovered in two different distributions like Red Hat and SUSE,the bug is really a single bug in the central kernel. But in the case of Windows, if there are two such bugs,they are totally two different problems.

Microsoft can't deny the facts, which is why Microsoft deploys many Linux servers for some of their internet services.
IntgrSpin, "In the end, windows "won". ", is a harsh statement.
Linux hasn't even _Begun_ to fight.

Once, again I have to say that I'm a huge *BSD fanatic.
Realistically, and as a professional in the field I can assert with 100% certainty that Linux can be _made_ to be more secure or stable than Windows. Although Linux doesn't even rank in the free/open OSes...and here's why:

- Linux has no concept of ulimit (either per system or per user)...i can run a Linux box into the ground fairly easy and it will have no means of prevention.
- Linux has no concept of a secure level...let alone a one way secure level (making escalation/de-escalation of privileges relatively simple)
- Linux has no internal permissionable set beyond the filesystem (this does not mean there is not a service-based config that would prevent).
- if syslog dies - the OS stays up (stability or threat waiting to happen?).
- it has a monolithic kernel with no form of security context isolation on functionality (you can enter kernel space at any point and are not limited to what you can/can't access...nor who you can/can't access it as).
- while Open Source has it's advantages, it's a problematic development environment that is not conducive to any reassurance of what is being provided.
- the entire Linux mentality is first-to-market, half of the latest drivers have had no/little production level testing.

vs.

Windows, I must say which solves pretty much all of the above outside of secure level (which was thrown in as a comparison against bsd). having had an eal4 rating since 2k sp3, and hounding near the eal5 mark (pop quiz - how many commercial operating systems have ever achieved an eal5 rating?) the biggest threat that Windows faces is malware ( as I have commented on ) - the problem with that stance is that only a small percentage of that threat is actually OS related or applicable given the appropriate administrative/user-education constraints. Worms/viruses are spread through user-stupidity 7 times out of 10, and 2 of the last 3 comes from unpatched/secured/managed windows hosts. This is a direct reflection of the Windows userbase, but IntgrSpin, you can't really throw all the blame on the ol' Larger Userbase thing., now can you?

If you want free/open/non-microsoft - then go *BSD, you'll get a controlled environment surrounding production, a kernel that was original devised from an actual working product ( rather than Minix which was no where even close to multi-user capability at the time linux was derived from it, a choice in cutting edge or stable, all of the pros of being unix-like ).
If you want commercial security (still non microsoft) go AIX. If you want features and management capabilities not offered in either of the other two domains with an on-par amount of security ( and growing tremendously in that regard since 2002 ), then windows nt-based systems (which if you're not familiar was roughly based on VAX) are the clear winner.
And while eal ratings don't mark something as being impenetrable (the majority of the security industry is focused on the backend, taking the assumption that everything is completely open - and devising ways to reduce impact, improve accountability, etc. and in that regard, I must reluctantly say - Windows is at the utmost top of the list).

As far as gsminardi goes:

1) If your choice of an OS is based on ease of use, then you obviously Unices aren't your thing, and you shouldn't be commenting negatively on their behalf.

2) Simply because you don't see Linux in every household is not the determining factor for you to be able to make a statement like: "Linux has had plenty of time to make an impact...it has failed".
If you believe that the only way Linux can possibly burst through and shine its light is to resemble Big Brother, then ...

Also, I'm not THAT big of a fan of Linux. It's come a long way - and it still has a long way to go. It's just a joke to compare to Windows security-wise, because of that geek-niche surrounding *NIX. Users who install Linux for the most part are tech-savvy individuals. We can't say that about Windows in the Least.

Let's just try to keep that in perspective in light of the "facts" that tend to get overlooked when bandwagon shipjumping rallies get started against better performers (commercial operating systems) - _and_ illustrate the full scale of options to jump to if/when the commercial->free plunge is decided upon...ie. *BSD.

Yeah that about sums it up, I think I'll shut up now.
post #30 of 104
If you're a 13 year-old whose computer expertise is limited to games and "web design" then it's no surprise you'll favor Windows.

Professionals choose tools that get the job done, children choose toys. There's nothing shameful in this -- it's part of life.

If all you've seen are Windows boxes, you're probably hanging around other children -- birds of a feather, understand? There's no reason to insult people about this -- when I was a child, I wanted to be with other children, too.

*nix/BSD has the server market well in hand. Boxes that must run reliably run *nix/BSD. If you think a few months of uptime is impressive, you don't understand reliability.

The desktop market is all M$ -- that was it's target, and it succeeded. This is slowly changing, but it is changing. M$ will not disappear, they make a lot of products that are important to a lot of people, but I do think a different equilibrium will result.

*nix wasn't designed for little Billy or his great-grandma, it was built for and by computer professionals, and therefore to a much higher standard of quality, but ease of use for the ignorant/untrained wasn't a factor, and that's what's changing. Is it as easy for the untrained as M$? Almost. Soon, absolutely.

For someone interested in starting in Linux today, the reason to go with Linux are clear:

Free
more secure
more stable
more control
more choice
post #31 of 104
Thank you for bringing us back on track, vicG.

Mikhail

P.S. leeach and gsminardi, please check your PM boxes.
post #32 of 104
Markin dev-sources???? Why afrid to live a little. I'm running Love-sources my self.
post #33 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordmats
Markin dev-sources???? Why afrid to live a little. I'm running Love-sources my self.


Yeah, I havent reached the point where I can tell for sure if one problem or another is caused by the kernel or not. The mark of 'stable' on a release is still very dear to me .

Mikhail
post #34 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by vicG
If you're a 13 year-old whose computer expertise is limited to games and "web design" then it's no surprise you'll favor Windows.
No I am not 13 years old...23 in-fact. And I know people well into their 40's and 50's (very common) who love to play games on their computers. This is not the reason why I favour windows. And suggesting that I must be 13 years old doesnt offend me - this is the attitude you "geeks" have...trust me - it is wrong

Quote:
Professionals choose tools that get the job done, children choose toys. There's nothing shameful in this -- it's part of life.
Utter nonsense. well...partly correct...I am a professional (Engineer by profession) and I simply cannot use Linux for my 3D software, CAD, Coventorware and loads of other essential software. Sorry - what you just said is complete nonsense and typical of the "I am better than thou" attitude you geeks have. I find it hilarious...

As a professional who has tried plenty...I simply cannot get any real work done in Linux. Unless I connect to my university server for using the software it is just not possible to do it in house using linux.

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If all you've seen are Windows boxes, you're probably hanging around other children -- birds of a feather, understand? There's no reason to insult people about this -- when I was a child, I wanted to be with other children, too.
You are still a child I live in the real world. You must live in some skewed society or you are probably stuck in some server room with a dozen other sweaty geeks.

Open the door...there is fresh air and plenty to see outside

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*nix/BSD has the server market well in hand. Boxes that must run reliably run *nix/BSD. If you think a few months of uptime is impressive, you don't understand reliability.
I agree...I hd my Sager 5660 in a redhat 9 installation running for about 4 months without shutting down and with almost no problems. Fantastic!! I fully understand the potential of linux - you guys think I dont like it..I do...I am just making the case for the other side who are, up to this point, correct.

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The desktop market is all M$ -- that was it's target, and it succeeded. This is slowly changing, but it is changing. M$ will not disappear, they make a lot of products that are important to a lot of people, but I do think a different equilibrium will result.
Unless Linux becomes more windows like in its functionality while retaining its positive qualities - this will never happen. We need more hardware support (I am not willing to write my own drivers and I am sure my family, friends and almost everyone in the world will not be interested).

Quote:
*nix wasn't designed for little Billy or his great-grandma, it was built for and by computer professionals, and therefore to a much higher standard of quality, but ease of use for the ignorant/untrained wasn't a factor, and that's what's changing. Is it as easy for the untrained as M$? Almost. Soon, absolutely.
Thats the problem - Linux is not a "friendly" Operating System simply because you guys design stuff for yourselves with the "I am better than thou" attitude. Unless this changes and unless the designers think from a n00b's point of view things are going to remain pretty much the same...

Quote:
For someone interested in starting in Linux today, the reason to go with Linux are clear:

Free
more secure
more stable
more control
more choice
I agree with Free, Secure, Stable, More Control and more choice. Linux is truly amazing. I am messing with fedora right now because it is the most promising from my 8790's hardware point of view...I think i'll have the wireless network up and running pretty soon...

post #35 of 104
I wholeheartedly agree with vicG.

This whole "geek" thing coming from gsminardi is what I don't buy. Keep in mind that this is not a flame, and I'm trying to see where your'e coming from.
It's just not feasible to me that because of the fact that you can't do any professional work in Linux, you automagically jump on the notion that people who _can_ are "geeks". Linux hackers that make their OS especially suited for _their_ use and won't conform to a spoon-fed monopoly for their every need have the _right_ to feel superior. And most of the time, rightfully so.

This is just another statement of absolute fudd, with no point of origin. When you make statements like these around us so-called "geeks", don't expect us to keep our mouths shut about it. I'll have you know that there are multiple applications that can be used in Linux for your profession.
For example:
Qcad - It's GPL and uses DXF as it's native format.
Varicad - Commerical, but it does 3D CSG-Solids, reads/writes dwg's.
Cycas - Commercial, 3D, exports to povray for rendering.
Or you can even use a Win32 CAD that you run with Wine.

Here is a mailing list you should sign up for:
cad-linux-request@freelists.org
And go check out these archives:
http://www.freelists.org/archives/cad-linux/

Given most of them don't adhere to the "free software" majority of apps used in Linux, but then again, Nothing is free in Windows.

You say you understand the full potential of Linux, you even go as far to say that it's fantastic! But then you turn around say that unless it becomes as functional as Windows, it will never make it..oh wait, you said it has failed already.
Linux is a hack, man. I think that says it all.
I think what you need is a good read, and then take a stab at FreeBSD.
They keep up with bleeding edge latest technology, and may have the "functionality" that you are looking for.

I've come to believe that you are downgrading Linux to actually start arguements.
post #36 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsminardi
No I am not 13 years old...23 in-fact. And I know people well into their 40's and 50's (very common) who love to play games on their computers. This is not the reason why I favour windows. And suggesting that I must be 13 years old doesnt offend me - this is the attitude you "geeks" have...trust me - it is wrong
Well I am 30 and I love games so I have to agree with you on this. The problem at the moment is that game manufacturers have not made enough of an effort to port games or make native clients for Linux.

Quote:
Utter nonsense. well...partly correct...I am a professional (Engineer by profession) and I simply cannot use Linux for my 3D software, CAD, Coventorware and loads of other essential software. Sorry - what you just said is complete nonsense and typical of the "I am better than thou" attitude you geeks have. I find it hilarious...
I worked for a drug company for many years and all the CADD (Computer assisted drug design) which involves massive amounts of processing and rendering as well as 3d modelling (I mean real 3d with the glasses etc) Was all done on UNIX/Linux boxes. I am not sure why you have not been able to find CAD software for Linux - http://www.ribbonsoft.com/qcad_about.html - is a pretty good example as is http://www.ac3d.org/. Both are very low cost (as in one is free) and seem like well adopted products.

Quote:
As a professional who has tried plenty...I simply cannot get any real work done in Linux. Unless I connect to my university server for using the software it is just not possible to do it in house using linux.
Define real work. I am a UNIX admin/programmer and would not do my "real work" In any other environment. I am yet to find any product in Windows that I cannot find in Linux in some form or another (games excepted). OpenOffice elminated my last need for windows.

Quote:
You are still a child I live in the real world. You must live in some skewed society or you are probably stuck in some server room with a dozen other sweaty geeks.
See therein lies your problem GS. You are assuming that Linux users are all sweaty geeks. That simply is not the case. I most certainly am not sweaty - though I am a geek. My wife uses Linux and with no prompting from me now prefers it over windows (She is a doctor btw not a geek) and calling her sweaty is a good way to get your ass kicked. What you have to understand is that many many linux users are simply people who want options. They are tired of the closed source, over controlled windows environment and want the ability to change their OS as they see fit. Linux users nowdays are business execs, geeks, scientists, housewives, grandmothers and anyone else you can name.

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Open the door...there is fresh air and plenty to see outside
Yep lovely day out today - gotta love spring.

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I agree...I hd my Sager 5660 in a redhat 9 installation running for about 4 months without shutting down and with almost no problems. Fantastic!! I fully understand the potential of linux - you guys think I dont like it..I do...I am just making the case for the other side who are, up to this point, correct.
Unfortunately thats not how it comes across. It comes over as a rabid defense of the Windows OS (when for the most part linux users will agree there is a place for the Windows). You also used personal insults and that just makes you seem like a Windows Fanboy dick.

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Unless Linux becomes more windows like in its functionality while retaining its positive qualities - this will never happen. We need more hardware support (I am not willing to write my own drivers and I am sure my family, friends and almost everyone in the world will not be Interested).
I Agree I do not think Linux is anywhere near as desktop friendly as it needs to be to begin replacing windows. I dont think that it would replace windows even if it were. That does not however mean that there is not a market for it. You mention writing your own drivers. In 10 years of using Linux I have never once had to write my own driver, the point is though - I could if I wanted to and I could do it far easier than windows because the source is right there for me to tie into as well as the source of hundreds of other drivers for me to use as templates. Thats part of the great thing about Linux - the community.

Quote:
Thats the problem - Linux is not a "friendly" Operating System simply because you guys design stuff for yourselves with the "I am better than thou" attitude. Unless this changes and unless the designers think from a n00b's point of view things are going to remain pretty much the same...
True some Linux users do have a superior attitude - but most are more than willign to help out new users. As far as designing SW point of view I give you an example from my own life. I wanted a small app to control the mp3 SW I use (xmms) I wrote one for myself and as an afterthought put it out on a web site for icon apps - last count 10,000 people had liked it enough to DL it and I have gotten many thankyou's for it (I think its even going into the next Debian release). Many of those thankyous were from NOOB linux users.

Quote:
I agree with Free, Secure, Stable, More Control and more choice. Linux is truly amazing. I am messing with fedora right now because it is the most promising from my 8790's hardware point of view...I think i'll have the wireless network up and running pretty soon...
Mandrake 10.0 - took me 1 minute to get the wireless up and running. prism54.org baby.

[/quote]
post #37 of 104
bratag - thanks for the prism54.org headsup

i'll pm you if I have problems getting this to work in Fedora/Redhat

Software that I use : coventorware, Altera MaxplusII, Verilog etc. are run in Windows and unix. I havent found a linux version for purchase or download and I need THESE particular programs to get my work done.

Nah I dont think Linux users are sweaty geeks...I just said that to "emphasize" the condescending attitude some of the users have. Most peeps on this board have been very helpful (remember when I tried out linux for the first time?)

My point is :-
==========

I love linux - plain and simple. I love the fact that it is free/stable...everything
I am using windows now to get my work done and to play games. I have only one computer and if I am in linux and suddenly feel like playing a game - I have to reboot

I think linux is not far from being more user friendly. But as a linux newb I struggled to get an mp3 player working, struggled to get DVD playback (even this didnt occupy the full screen and looked weird).

I had a blast getting Redhat 9.0 working on my 5660 and I have 20GB saved up for it when I hit my holidays...

I will spend summer getting the perfect linux installation and try to create my own iso tubed for the 8790. I need you guys to contribute and to help me out.

No hard feelings...everyone just trying to make a point and defend it.

BUT :-
===

I may be prepared to do this...99% of the computing world will not even consider this feasible. For an OS to be successful and to grab the full market share it has to appeal to all sectors - Home/ Office/ Edu/ Gov etc. So far Linux hasnt really made that kind of impact...certainly nothing enough to scare MS into hiding

When that DOES happen - Linux will no longer be free...I can assure you
post #38 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsminardi
I may be prepared to do this...99% of the computing world will not even consider this feasible. For an OS to be successful and to grab the full market share it has to appeal to all sectors - Home/ Office/ Edu/ Gov etc. So far Linux hasnt really made that kind of impact...certainly nothing enough to scare MS into hiding

When that DOES happen - Linux will no longer be free...I can assure you
You know what, you should see this movie called, "Revolution OS". Have you seen it? You should if you haven't. I think that movie would _really_ put you into perspective about what GNU/Linux actually is.
post #39 of 104
Quote:
When that DOES happen - Linux will no longer be free...I can assure you
Maybe it'll never happen, but Linux will *always* be free. It's so ingrained into the development and distribution process Linux wouldn't (and couldn't) exist any other way.

Monkeys will fly out of Bill Gates' butt before Linux stops being free.
post #40 of 104
What I mean is - as long as linux is free - it will not challenge MS for marketshare. Linux needs one group to sit down, accept work from developers across the world, put everything together and keep updating it regularly. They would have to pay hardware manufacturers for their details (which some companies seem hell bent upon keeping secret) or enter into partnership with them...

I would imagine all this costs money...
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