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Am I in big trouble?

post #1 of 11
Thread Starter 
http://news.com.com/2100-7344_3-6160...-0-5&subj=news

So is MS now going to go after me like the RIAA goes after those sales depriving, pirate grandmothers?
post #2 of 11
You forgot DEAD in your description of the grandmothers

There are several problems with this. Even if Open Source did,which I do not believe it does in any way that cannot be immediately rectified(For example the FAT modules might be considered that now that MS won the patent on that FileSystem), MS has no clear cut strategy to be able to sue open source. They could sue the companies supporting open source, but that is a mixed bag, as the companies themselves do not claim to own Linux. All they do is sell servers with Linux on it, or provide support for it.

They could sue the companies using Linux, of course we all know how well that turned out for SCO, and what a brilliant image that brought them(And some still suspect MS of having more than a hand in that maneuver as well of course). Difference here is MS has the money to do with SCO could not, carry on a pointless and losing battle until the other company is bankrupt. It is unfortunatly a common tactic these days. But then what happens if the big names all band together to support it, would all of them together have enough money to continue the fight? Probably.

They could try to sue the developers...

Except the majority of the developers are not something that can be sued easily, and of course there is the question of which one do you sue. You sue one that had nothing to do with the code in question, does it do much good?

So their best course of action will be to sue those they want to give them money.

Now that being aside, with the exception of very recent IP patents(Good grief I hate that system), I don't believe they have a good case to base it off of anyways. Even in the recent IP of the FAT FS and such, I am not sure they can prove a loss of sales based off that anymore. Windows is not suited to embedded devices, which is the primary place where FAT is used these days. What this is doing though is trying to scare folks into using MS. Gotta love fear tactics. In other venues that might almost be called other names, somewhat akin to 1920s style mob activity. Using fear to control the actions of others.

Seablade
post #3 of 11
Thread Starter 
When I read that article I was extremely irritated and also really happy to see it. I was irritated because it's just a vicious attack on people like us that support OSS and it's a direct attack on all of the great individuals that develop for the community. I'm happy because Steve Ballmer just has no ability to keep his mouth shut. He has no discreet conspiring abilities whatsoever. We know exactly what he's up to so we know how to deal with him.

So it's pretty obvious now that MS' new strategy is to belch an uber level of FUD on the OSS community. They are just going to take the old (and failed) SCO tactics to a whole new level- and we all know who funded SCO's legal war chest. I'm sure they'll take things like the FAT patents and try to use that to their advantage. I find it amazing that a company can allow something like FAT become a widely adopted standard then, when they feel, apply for the patent and declare everyone infringers that adopted the standard. It's just asinine.

I was actually a little frustrated recently because I interviewed for a job that would have consisted of network administration and web development. So explain that I have experience with Windows network administration, but I also have abilities maintaining Linux servers and develop web applications on OSS frameworks. I then went on to describe my abilities with Ruby on Rails. The response I got is "We don't work with free software, we need something more professional. We only use enterprise Microsoft certified servers for our products." So these people wanted to hire an ASP developer to build something I could have done in a weekend on Rails. And it's not like these people standardized on ASP, they had no web developers. The FUD seems to be working but, in all honesty, these people were really ignorant.

Anyway, I'm more confident than ever that SuSe and Novell should just die and never come back. What I am curious to know is what critical applications Novell develops for the community. What things are the community dependent on that novell maintains?
post #4 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtrouble77
I'm sure they'll take things like the FAT patents and try to use that to their advantage. I find it amazing that a company can allow something like FAT become a widely adopted standard then, when they feel, apply for the patent and declare everyone infringers that adopted the standard. It's just asinine.

Its probably worth becoming familiar with a couple of legal battles regarding that sort of patent entrapment behaviour:

RAMBUS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rambus#Lawsuits

Dell VL Bus
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...20and%20Patent

and (wow, interesting, hadn't realised there was a copy of this snagged on the Linux Today site)
http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story...-20-OP-CY-0020
that last one is now out of date on the W3C aspects - W3C has a fully RF patent policy and no RAND. But with an interesting 'bite me and all bets are off' clause
post #5 of 11
Quote:
Anyway, I'm more confident than ever that SuSe and Novell should just die and never come back. What I am curious to know is what critical applications Novell develops for the community. What things are the community dependent on that novell maintains?
Quite a bit (un)fortuantly. Samba obviously, Mono is another one, which just got a working self sustaining VB.net compiler, they have the arguably best setup for workgroups out there in their software on linux at the moment. No Novell can't just die. CJCox will probably back me up on that one without much problem. However I do think they are realizing how big a slap in the face(PR if nothing else) they made when they signed that agreement. It just gave fuel to Ballmer, and his scare tactics. My question is now, what can they do to fix it. Seablade
post #6 of 11
Thread Starter 
I'm familiar with the Rambus suits. I actually think Rambus is a great example of Consumers and hardware developers successfully defying a monopoly (intel). Intel tried to force the standard in an effort to damage AMD and failed miserably. Then, of course, Rambus became a litigation company, like sco, tried to flex their ridiculous patents, and failed, like sco.

I hadn't heard about the Dell case. That's interesting. I believe a company like MS gets away with this crap (patenting a standardized file system) because they have so many lobbyists in Washington fighting for their interests. We all saw what MS did to that guy in Massachussetts simply for adopting the ODT document standard. I guess Dell doesn't have so much political clout.

I don't think the US is going to do much about MS' abusiveness. I'm a little more confident in the EU as they actually have produced results.
post #7 of 11
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seablade
Samba obviously, Mono is another one, which just got a working self sustaining VB.net compiler, they have the arguably best setup for workgroups out there in their software on linux at the moment.
I never really understood the purpose of Mono, but there are a few apps that use it, some of which I use (beagle, tomboy, f-spot). The Samba developers have denounced the deal (http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS9004150120.html) so I would think it's just a matter of getting funding from somewhere else if they chose to break from Novell. I really don't know, tho.
post #8 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by seablade
Quite a bit (un)fortuantly.

Samba obviously, Mono is another one, which just got a working self sustaining VB.net compiler, they have the arguably best setup for workgroups out there in their software on linux at the moment.

No Novell can't just die. CJCox will probably back me up on that one without much problem. However I do think they are realizing how big a slap in the face(PR if nothing else) they made when they signed that agreement. It just gave fuel to Ballmer, and his scare tactics.

My question is now, what can they do to fix it.

Seablade

I'll back you up on not getting rid of SUSE. Not sure if anyone likes the fact that Novell did the deal with Microsoft. Oddly, it hasn't had the detrimental effect that anti-SUSE folks have desired... at least not yet.

With regards to lawsuits... this was coming with or without the infamous Novell deal. And no... Microsoft probably isn't going to sue people who have NO money. They'll go after larger corporations. IANAL, but if you look at some of the recent cases and how they've come out... you'll see that it's pretty much a toss up whether sanity and justice reign in the courts or not. Microsoft has a large patent arsenal. I can guarantee you that technologies inside of Linux infringe on the patents.... now... whether or not the patent is "valid" is another question. If you don't believe that (which is hard to imagine)... use Google's patent search system and read the patents that Microsoft owns. It's sad, funny and ominous at the same time.

Also, like many gorilla-sized companies, Microsoft typically uses their arsenal to defend themselves against infringement claims. So they are usually the one being "attacked" (duh... they have big bucks!). I really don't think Microsoft is so stupid to bite the hand that feeds them... so I think Balmer is barking loudly from behind a very strong fence.

I still see the deal (like it or not) as getting Linux into some of the impenetrable enterprises. Which is always a good thing. Will it save Novell? Not sure. They may have bought themselves some breathing room... which is also perfectly ok.

Should we make the goal of the Linux community the destruction of Novell and SUSE? I don't think so. Should we make the goal of the GPLv3 to specifically punish companies for having patents? I'm not sure Linux is ready to blackmail people into change .. not yet.

Since 99% of the people here fall into the Novell-hate camp... I'll just say that there's a whole lot of more productive things we could be doing than trying to shoot the person that shook hands with Microsoft. Oddly, most of the nay-sayers are very much into the idea of integrating their Linux systems with Windows... which is more like planting a big sloppy wet one on the lips of Steve Balmer himself.... oh well. But before you turn your guns to your heads and pull the trigger... again... this would not be the best thing for Linux.

My two cents...
post #9 of 11
Quote:
Oddly, it hasn't had the detrimental effect that anti-SUSE folks have desired... at least not yet.
It really has. It has made nearly everyone think twice, take a second look around and see where they stand in regards to Novell, Linux, their solutions, and their ethics. That by itself is a bad thing in business. If your customers start looking around and reanalyzing whether they should remain your customer, that is a sign you have done something wrong. Now what I think you were referring to was a mass migration away from Suse, you are right a mass migration has not happened, but a decent one has at the personal desktop level(Not enterprise which is where Suse makes the majority of their money). One thing they have going for them, something that even RedHat has admitted, is the sales from MS of their product. Then again RedHat also said, sure use up all the tickets and lets get it over with. Thing is, MS did one of the major things that could have helped Novell... MS gave Novell a reason to fight them(Poor choice of words, but I am to tired at the moment to come up with what I am looking for, not quite as strong as fight, more like disagreement), repair their image somewhat, and gave a distraction to turn angst against. Now whether this is a business plan or not I leave to other conspirators to talk about.
Quote:
Since 99% of the people here fall into the Novell-hate camp...
I will say though that this is not true. It is more along the lines of SuseDistro-Dislike, combined with Novell-Mistrust camp for many here. Even those of us that have been more vocal about that string of events that really fits much better.
Quote:
I'll just say that there's a whole lot of more productive things we could be doing than trying to shoot the person that shook hands with Microsoft.
It is amazing how much I have seen this line of thought come up recently actually. If this deal did nothing else, as I mentioned above, it made people look around at their current state of affairs. Not even just those involved with Novell at that. It would be very interesting if that however sparked a renaissance of organization that provided a much stronger platform. Seablade
post #10 of 11
Thread Starter 
I actually don't disagree with too much you wrote, cjcox. I have always wished that linux and windows could live in harmony (it would make my life much easier), but that became a pipe dream when gates stepped down and balmer stepped up.

You are correct in that nothing hugely damaging has happened yet. SuSe probably lost some desktop share, but admins aren't going to all-of-a-sudden reconfigure their servers with redhat becase of this nonsense. While the agreement damages all linux users to some degree, suse users do get a couple perks (if anyone actually cares about the vouchers) so there's no reason to defect from suse, save out of principle.

And microsoft is not going to do anything except spew FUD like they've been doing. I do think FUD is oss' worst enemy. You are most definitely correct that linux and many linux projects probably are violating some ridiculous patents or have some pieces of code that should be rewritten. I'm probably violating some patent for writing a stupid blog engine. And don't forget that IBM holds more patents than anyone... If MS plays that card it could be all out war with IBM. It's a little ironic that, just last week, MS was sued for using of mp3 technology by another patent troll. Apparently paying mp3 royalties to the Fraunhoffer Institute is not sufficient.

I blame novell because their decision was self-serving and blatently damaging to the oss community. The community has to proactively demonstrate that this behavior is completely unacceptable, even from a company like novell (who has contributed considerably). I would say the same thing about cannonical if they try to pull something like this.
post #11 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtrouble77
I blame novell because their decision was self-serving and blatently damaging to the oss community. The community has to proactively demonstrate that this behavior is completely unacceptable, even from a company like novell (who has contributed considerably). I would say the same thing about cannonical if they try to pull something like this.

Well... certainly it was "self serving"... but you know... last time I checked... that's pretty much how businesses operate (?). With regards to Canonical, just remember that there used to be a company called Thawte that attempted to monopolize the certificate market and the owner cashed out for big bucks... leaving behind the legacy of the monopoly he established. And that my friend is probably just a bit more selfish than anything Novell has done since its SUSE acquisition. Perhaps Canonical is what happens when you feel really guilty about how you rooked the entire world??
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