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Brand NEW 17" Santa Rosa MBP Thermal Paste Nightmare!

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
Let me start by saying I just bought a brand new, less than a week ago, (from the Apple Store) 17" Santa Rosa MBP with the hi res screen (matte), 160GB 7200 RPM HD, 2.4Ghz CPU and the 256MB 8600 GT. For some more background I am a system administrator and a PC tech so I know what I'm doing with computers (most of the time anyway ). Anyhow, after getting my MBP and installing Vista on it via bootcamp and thoroughly enjoying the dual booting, I notice the thing runs hot. Ok, I do some google'ing and find the various thermal paste horror stories floating around. In windows (I've been spending more time in windows since I got it) I notice that it is IDLING at ~ 53-60C!!! I think perhaps this is not right, something may be wrong with the temp monitor software I use? Well, I use several, one of which is Intel softare called Intel Thermal Analysis Tool that monitors the DTS (Digital Thermal Sensor) in each core, it also will load the pants out of an Intel CPU - ~ 20% higher load than Intel's specified TDC. So for living with the heat for almost a week I decide I must bust the machine open, remove the logic board (mother board for you non apple folk) and see what kind of thermal paste job is in there.

Let me say that removing the logic board from these machines IS NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART!!! It scared the #@#$%$ out of me a few times! I took my time and marked where every last screw went and every cable, even the yellow tape. Once I had the board out and turned it over (the CPU, NB and GPU face DOWN so they can't be seen unless you remove the logic board) the sight was HORRIFIC!!! In my professional opinion they used about 40x too much paste, yes I said FORTY TIMES! All thermal paste is supposed to do is fill the micro groves and pits in the heatsink so VERY LITTLE IS NEEDED! Too much is worse than none. Anyhow, I'm sure you want pics so here they are. Oh, and my idle and LOAD temps dropped by ALMOST 20C!!!

Shame on whoever is assembling these machines as the average user will NEVER fix this and would perhaps think 'this is just how hot it is supposed to run'. I would demand Apple fix this, I would show them pictures etc, etc.

Oh the HORROR!




Now the heat pipe cooling system before:


Here is a CLEAN logic board - From left to right: GPU, North Bridge, CPU:


Proper paste applied - I have some special diamond dust thermal paste that is VERY durable so I used it - I have seen others apply the paste to the chips AND to the heat sinks, THIS IS BAD, VERY BAD!!! ONLY APPLY TO CHIPS.


And finally the cleaned heat pipe cooler:
post #2 of 18
that definantly is way too much...
but on a side note, no way your idle temp went down 20c. my mbp idles at around 48-50, no way your getting in the 20s
post #3 of 18
I believe he meant to imply it went to 33-40C Idle, since it was idling for him between 53 and 60. 33 is still quite low for a laptop with limited cooling though. 40 Idle I could possibly see though at times, I suppose it depends on the circumstances.

Seablade
post #4 of 18
PS While I certainly agree there is to much there, and has been a large problem in the past, it appears from your pics that the paste on the chip surfaces themselves is not to thick, possibly just pressure making it that thin though from appearances as it seems a LOT of leftovers spilling off there.

Unfortunately this is becoming a common problem with Apple's manufacturer...

Seablade
post #5 of 18
My macbook pro looked about the same. I cleaned it up and finnally got it back together (took 2 hrs to do) I heard apple has their x1600 (now 8600gt's) downclocked to help with heat issues.
post #6 of 18
Thread Starter 
Seems temps (idle) are not quite what I originally thought... idle impovement of ~9-12C with load temps better by about 16C. It has finally had time to warm up fully and settle a bit. Perhaps over the next few days it will get better.
post #7 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1 View Post
Seems temps (idle) are not quite what I originally thought... idle impovement of ~9-12C with load temps better by about 16C. It has finally had time to warm up fully and settle a bit. Perhaps over the next few days it will get better.
those are excellent results, i dont think you can hope for anything more. so just for my old eyes, what are the temps running now? Kaltek: the x1600 in the CoreDuo machines were underclocked more than what they are in the Core2Duo machines. im not sure on exact numbers, but ive seen it myself.
post #8 of 18
Hmm...unrelated question, nikhsub1, but from your pictures, it looks like the CPU is soldered to the logic board. Oh, say it ain't so!

I've been stuck between a 15" MBP and an Asus G1S for a while now, and I'm starting to get really discouraged about the former with all the horror stories of batteries and overheating and all.

D:
post #9 of 18
Mac laptop CPUs are always soldered on.
post #10 of 18
and mac's come with osx, something the ASUS will not

decision made
post #11 of 18
You also have to take into account that there have not been too many new stories of overheating or battery issues though. Also, keep in mind that a disgruntled few will more often be heard better than the satisfied many. A lot of the stories that I saw about battery problems, or overheating and other such things all seemed to have the exact same information, and the exact same pictures, meaning that a lot of it was all one guy that was especially upset (and by all rights).
post #12 of 18
I did the same to mine. Idle temps are in the 36-42 range now.

My load temps, however, have shot up to almost ninety now. I broke one of my temperature sensors as well but have some tape holding it in place. im going to get a replacement off of ebay, and when i get it in redo my paste job. i thought i put it on pretty thin but maybe i can go thinner.
post #13 of 18
A little OT but if this happens to be more wide spread than initially thought, wouldn’t the right thing to do would be for nikhsub1 to pass along his findings to apple in hopes that at least they get to know about it (pictures and all) and maybe address it in the future?
post #14 of 18
Thread Starter 
I had a hunch, a theory if you will. I took my logic board out YET AGAIN... why? To test my theory. First, with my THIN layer of thermal paste, remember I used this special diamond paste which was VERY thick, almost like cold peanut butter. Well, the chips were making good contact with the sinks, no problem there at all. Now for my theory - I would bet anything that the thermal paste being used is Shin-Etsu G751, this is my paste of choice for my watercooled desktop machine. This paste DOES NOT AND WILL NOT SPEAD it is too thick. Intel spec for desktop mount pressure is ~50 to 70 lbs. With that amount of pressure excess will ooze out no matter the paste's viscosity. I dont know what Intel's mount pressure spec is for bare die CPU's (Desktop CPU's have an IHS - Integrated Heat Spreader covering the die, our notebook cpu's do not) but I can assure you it is no where near that of a desktop. If I had to guess I would say no more than 35 lbs. Anyway, with such little mount pressure excess thermal paste, especially the stuff Apple is using, is not going to easily ooze out. Again I believe this paste is Shin-Etsu G751 which many many OEM's use as it is very good and lasts a long time. So, if the stock paste is slopped inbetween the chips and the sinks some will ooze out, but not all of it! Please go back and look at my link to the large picture - note how much paste is on the chips! WAY too much! Here is a picture of the thermal paste on a desktop CPU after testing a bowed waterblock - the block was convex, you will note the strip going from top to bottom just off center - note how the paste was squished out! This paste in the below picture is Ceramique.



Anyway, tonight I removed the diamond paste which was also thick, not quite as thick as the stock stuff but still very viscous. I replaced it with Ceramique! I was fairly liberal with it (to test my theory) and my temps are now BETTER THAN EVER. Hard to give a number just yet as I just loaded the snot out of it with Intels Thermal Analysis Tool in windows.

To reiterate my theory once more - The amount of paste being used by Apple is NOT THE PROBLEM as people have stated, what is the problem is the viscosity of the paste, it is far too thick to ooze out from between chips and sink leaving a much thicker amount of paste which will hinder cooling in a bad way.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it
post #15 of 18
I think the issue is the single air intake/exhaust opening (that partially obstructed by the screen hinge).

That said, my MBP varies widely in temp 42-55C (general surfing) to 68-84C (100% both CPU). using the default fan speeds and triggers. The case gets hot, but not really more than my Dell M70. My acer radiates heat out the top; it is great in your lap, but you hands sweat.

Putting that in perspective, my Acer 8104 which the MBP replaced idled at 55-60C, and peaked at 96-104C. And the heat radiated through the track pad area making the machine miserable to use. Using RMclock to undervolt the cpu allowed me to drop the temps around 7C across the board.

FWIW, I really really like the new MBP.
post #16 of 18
how hard would you say it is to replace the mbp paste? just curious. i had a buddy that had me take apart his MBP, i just didnt remove the logic board. basically just removed the keyboard.
post #17 of 18
Wow this is really interesting. My brother just got a MBP and it idles much hotter in windows than my Dell 9300. It averages ~58c and won't clock down from 2.4ghz. Having said that, it doesn't increase much on load. Its also very quiet, even loaded.

My 2ghz PM (at 800mhz) seems to have a temp of 32c, not much above ambient. Wish I could say the same for my 7800gtx
post #18 of 18
Except for the Thermal Paste problem, how do you like the MBP with the 17" screen?
Do you like the 17" screen better than the 15"?
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