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Please comment on this audio setup

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 
Here's my setup for audio hardware for a home editing studio. Please, your comments and thoughts on component selection:

M-Audio Transit USB SPDIF -> Stello DA-100 DAC -> ADAM Audio A7 Studio Monitors

The SPDIF connection is an optical one (TOSLINK) so any electrical noise on the USB bus is a non-issue.

The laptop specs are in my sig. (My laptop has integrated SPDIF, but I want the external M-Audio instead, that way I have the option in the future to use this setup on any USB-equipped computer).

What are you guys using for hifi audio?
post #2 of 14
far from hifi, but my AT A700's sound pretty good from my audigy2 zs card.
post #3 of 14
My personal suggestion? Not familiar with the stella, but I would get a better interface with a good D/A (RME, Apogee, etc) and use the D/A in the interface. If the Stella is a strong D/A I would save that for your recording stage myself, but again I am not familiar with that brand.

Seablade

EDIT: Just realised you weren't looking for Recording, but for HiFi... in which case I wonder why the ADAMs as in many cases you might be more unhappy with your music listening to them through decent monitors as you will hear defects more easily. Eh to each their own though, I definilty understand the desire for at least a certain quality.

In which case, well the Transit may work for what you need, who knows. Different area than I deal with most of the time.
post #4 of 14
Thread Starter 
Seablade, you're right, I'm not actually doing any recording with this setup. I'm taking the audio data recorded elsewhere and just using this setup for editing and playback.

Really a dual-purpose system. Audio editing (live recordings of local bands here in DC) and also as a hifi playback system for my music collection.

Serves it's purpose well enough, but I'm relatively new to the hifi and audio editing world and not familiar with all the various brands/products out there. Really was just fishing for suggestions on alternate components or better ways to do it. (Nothing like doing your homework after you've already made the purchase!!)
post #5 of 14
Quote:
dv9500t C2D@2.0Ghz, 2GB, 2x 7200rpm 100GB, 8600M GS, Gentoo Linux.
Interesting setup... post on LAU do you? Just in case you don't, you are familiar with the Pro-Audio overlay for Gentoo right? If not, search the wiki and google for it, you will find it handy. I can tell you my home studio setup if you would like, the choice of OS does limit your interface choice a bit due to RME not being very helpful with the FireFace drivers, means you are very limited in what external interfaces you choose. Right now for external interfaces your best bet are probably those supported by FreeBob, or whatever they are calling themselves now. Haven't tried it yet myself, but some of the Presonus will likely have a bit better D/A stage than the MAudio, and provide a bit more flexibility. What type of music primarily out of curiosity? Those Adams, at least at first glance, would do probably best on acoustic types of music, but for heavily compressed stuff there might be a better choice out there(Ribbons don't typically take to high volumes well). Seablade Fellow Linux Audio Freak Usually not to far down the road from you either as I live in Richmond currently. Course I am on contract right now in Santa Fe, but still...
post #6 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seablade View Post
Interesting setup... post on LAU do you? Just in case you don't, you are familiar with the Pro-Audio overlay for Gentoo right? If not, search the wiki and google for it, you will find it handy. I can tell you my home studio setup if you would like, the choice of OS does limit your interface choice a bit due to RME not being very helpful with the FireFace drivers, means you are very limited in what external interfaces you choose. Right now for external interfaces your best bet are probably those supported by FreeBob, or whatever they are calling themselves now. Haven't tried it yet myself, but some of the Presonus will likely have a bit better D/A stage than the MAudio, and provide a bit more flexibility. What type of music primarily out of curiosity? Those Adams, at least at first glance, would do probably best on acoustic types of music, but for heavily compressed stuff there might be a better choice out there(Ribbons don't typically take to high volumes well). Seablade Fellow Linux Audio Freak Usually not to far down the road from you either as I live in Richmond currently. Course I am on contract right now in Santa Fe, but still...
Howdy Seablade, yes Richmond is not far at all. In fact, my girlfriend is a student at VCU so I'm down that way every now and again. I have not heard of LAU? Got a link? Yes, I do have the Pro-Audio overlay installed, lots of good stuff in there. I've updated my setup with a Stello HP-100 preamp. I'm kind of new to the whole hifi hardware thing (been using cheapo computer audio hardware for far too long!), and just learned that it's the norm for SPDIF volume to output at a fixed level. The HP-100 preamp will provide the volume control. I could plug the DA-100 DAC directly into the USB port, tried it yesterday and the ALSA USB-Audio driver works perfectly with it. I want to electrically isolate my audio setup from my pc however, so that's why I'm using the Sound Blaster with toslink cable. I also added some more storage, RAID1 for data security, using a Venus DS3R: http://www.directron.com/venusds3r.html It's a *really* nice piece of hardware for the price. Gives me 500GB of RAID1 storage on nice, fast, FireWire800. ohci1394 and sbp2 kernel modules loaded, it's just seen as a SCSI disk /dev/sdb ;-) easy. Music type is mixed - some classical, some jazz, some rock. I'm not playing back at uber high volume levels, and I like the sound of the ribbon. I know most prefer a traditional cone as found in Genelec's. Cheers, Lupin
post #7 of 14
For the classical and Jazz the ribbon becomes a matter of taste, the rock however it might be a bit of a limiting factor.

S/PDIF will output like a standard voltage range yes. That range however can be adjusted *DOWN* depending on your hardware/software, it will still be in the range, but will output a smaller section of the range, if that makes sense. Most Line Level or Digital Interfaces work like this. You can usually take them to a quieter signal with no problem though.

Funny you should mention VCU, I am putting my wife and myself through it currently

In as far as using a headphone amp in front of your powered monitors... I hesitate to do that. I understand what you are trying to do, there are better passive ways to do it(I have a Presonus Central Station personally serving the same purpose). There are two things that concern me, one is impedance, one is overall levels. Your headphone amp will not be designed to only put out line level like your monitors are expecting, and thus it is easy to screw up a gain stage doing that, not to mention possibly damage the inputs on your monitors if taken to much into the extreme.

The impedance issue is a bit more tricky, especially since I would have to look it up to be sure it is an issue, though I suspect it probably is in this case. Basically(VERY simplified) when dealing with line level devices, the devices are built for a certain impedance on the input and output side, in order to keep the signal clean. However if you change the impedance, the result can be coloring the sound, depending on several factors. Again it is something I would have to look up based off your setup, equipment, cabling, and the actual impedances involved and expected. If you are happy with your sound, fine, I might suggest plugging in a decent pair of headphones and comparing to see how far off it might be.

NOTE: The next two paragraphs are strongly ancedotal, but I think you will find they probably holds true, at least in the professional world.

I can say that Hi-Fi and recording hardware tend to be two different categories. Hi-Fi in general when used typically refers to the consumer/some audiophile equipment. Also in general this is where you will get the -10 levels of consumer equipment. Recording and Professional equipment will output a +4 signal on line level, to strong for consumer equipment, and generally falls into its own class.

So in many instances you are using more professional, or at least prosumer equipment than HiFi, despite them both being intended for 'High Fidelity', of course how anyone can call it High Fidelity when listening to MP3s I really don't know these days

The RAID 1 is nice, and will likely give you good read speeds as an added bonus to the data security, allowing you to mix down more tracks if you ever need to. Don't try to record to many tracks at once onto it though

In as far as isolation is concerned, you can do it several ways. Obviously right now I am running ADAT to a seperate Preamp/DAC/ADC, but I have also run standard copper and line level as well on occasion. If a ground loop should develop, isolating the grounds between your system will be all you need to do to fix it. But truth be told you don't have enough that needs to be on a separate outlet yet, nothing in that list should be drawing even close to 20Amps.

LAU is Linux Audio Users mailing list.

http://lau.linuxaudio.org/

The expertise level ranges from absolute beginner that might or might not know the difference between optical and copper, to professional. But in general you can get good linux specific advice on there, but beware it is a decent volume list(Meaning you will get a fair amount of email from it if you subscribe). Setting up Filters in your client software is a good idea, I have a gmail account I use for my email lists I subscribe to to make sure I don't have a problem with space or bandwidth, but I subscribe to a fair few as well.

Seablade
post #8 of 14
Thread Starter 
Seablade, that's good food for thought, gives me some things to research, thanks.

FWIW, all the reviews I've read of the Stello gear had the DA100 DAC, feeding the HP100 preamp, feeding a pair of powered speakers.

The Adam A7's I'm using do not have a volume level adjustment, only an input gain adjustment, so I need something like the HP100 to sit in the middle between the DAC and the A7's to control the volume level. The HP100 has an adjustable output gain selector switch, so you can set it higher or lower depending on the type of amplifier in your monitors.

Edit: Here's a quote from this review, fwiw: http://www.soundstage.com/allinyourh...head200606.htm
"The HP100's input impedance is quoted as a whopping 1 million ohms, while the output impedance is a low 50 ohms. The gain through the output jacks is said to be 11.3dB with the gain switch in the Low position, and 16.3dB with the gain switch in the High position. All these specifications mean that the HP100 should be compatible with just about any imaginable headphones, source, or power amp."
post #9 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by lupin..the..3rd View Post
Seablade, that's good food for thought, gives me some things to research, thanks.

FWIW, all the reviews I've read of the Stello gear had the DA100 DAC, feeding the HP100 preamp, feeding a pair of powered speakers.

The Adam A7's I'm using do not have a volume level adjustment, only an input gain adjustment, so I need something like the HP100 to sit in the middle between the DAC and the A7's to control the volume level. The HP100 has an adjustable output gain selector switch, so you can set it higher or lower depending on the type of amplifier in your monitors.

Edit: Here's a quote from this review, fwiw: http://www.soundstage.com/allinyourh...head200606.htm
"The HP100's input impedance is quoted as a whopping 1 million ohms, while the output impedance is a low 50 ohms. The gain through the output jacks is said to be 11.3dB with the gain switch in the Low position, and 16.3dB with the gain switch in the High position. All these specifications mean that the HP100 should be compatible with just about any imaginable headphones, source, or power amp."

You do realise that you are doing the exact same thing(Albiet in a slightly more noisy way) with your 'volume' in between as adjusting the gain right? I am not saying it isn't easier, as I already mentioned I have a central station inbetween mine, but it accomplishes the same thing in a less efficient way, especially if you ARE actually amplifying the signal at all.

Any amplification stage, which is essentially what that HP100 is doing will add noise. On top of that if you feed a line level device a signal that is to strong for it, you will induce distortion. The line level output of your DAC and line level input of your speakers, provided both are expecting the same level(the -10/+4 I alluded to in an earlier post) will be the most efficient transfer of audio. Now admittedly I can't speak for quality of said output, but I would expect the Adams to be of decent enough quality to be expecting a certain level and have that level labeled on its input. If it is an RCA input it is almost certainly expecting on that one a -10. A 1/4" input can be expecting either a +4 or a -10, chances are it will be the +4 though.

The output of your DAC I don't know what it outputs at, sorry.

So I suppose what this all comes down to, is why you aren't just using the volume control in your computer for adjusting volume if you need to? Instead of purchasing a different device that to be honest, I am not sure you need? Not trying to be a pain here, honestly curious, I suspect you have a good reason.

Seablade
post #10 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seablade View Post
You do realise that you are doing the exact same thing(Albiet in a slightly more noisy way) with your 'volume' in between as adjusting the gain right? I am not saying it isn't easier, as I already mentioned I have a central station inbetween mine, but it accomplishes the same thing in a less efficient way, especially if you ARE actually amplifying the signal at all. Any amplification stage, which is essentially what that HP100 is doing will add noise. On top of that if you feed a line level device a signal that is to strong for it, you will induce distortion. The line level output of your DAC and line level input of your speakers, provided both are expecting the same level(the -10/+4 I alluded to in an earlier post) will be the most efficient transfer of audio. Now admittedly I can't speak for quality of said output, but I would expect the Adams to be of decent enough quality to be expecting a certain level and have that level labeled on its input. If it is an RCA input it is almost certainly expecting on that one a -10. A 1/4" input can be expecting either a +4 or a -10, chances are it will be the +4 though. The output of your DAC I don't know what it outputs at, sorry. So I suppose what this all comes down to, is why you aren't just using the volume control in your computer for adjusting volume if you need to? Instead of purchasing a different device that to be honest, I am not sure you need? Not trying to be a pain here, honestly curious, I suspect you have a good reason. Seablade
Part of the problem is that the SPDIF output from the computer is fixed. You cannot adjust the output volume from the computer when using SPDIF output. After a little googling, I found that's pretty standard behavior for PC audio devices. (Maybe with some higher-end pro gear, you can adjust the SPDIF output level, but most of that gear is uncharted territory under Linux). So that means I have to control the volume from somewhere other than from the PC. The DAC does not have a volume control, it just converts the digital signal to analog and passes it along. The input gain adjustment on the A7's is very limited. It goes from -60db to +6 db. That's it. Plus, apparently, the analog outputs of the DAC are providing a much higher gain than the A7's are expecting. I have to have the A7's input gain turned down almost all the way, to about -50 db to have a normal volume level. Below -50db I can't hear anything, and above -45db, I'm afraid I'll damage the speakers it's so loud and has so much distortion. If I set the A7's input gain to 0, I have no doubt it would blow out the speakers instantly. So the vast majority of the adjustment range, from -45 db, to +6 db, is unusable. The gain adjustment is a round knob, and out of 360 degrees of rotation, I have about 5 degrees (like 1mm of movement) where it provides a useful volume adjustment. Not usable at all. So my goal with the preamp is two fold; to reduce the gain going into the A7's, and also to give a more usable control over the volume level. Plus, there's the added convenience of have a single point of volume control vs. having to individually adjust each A7 when I want to change the volume. My reading on these products in particular is that this is the intended approach. All reviews I've read of the Stello DA100/HP100 had them driving powered studio monitors, which is what I'm doing. Further, all reviews I read of the A7 monitors had the input gain adjustment on 0, and used a pre-amp to control the output volume. I believe this gain adjustment dial on the A7's is intended for fine tuning, not for general volume adjustment. (The A7's are sold individually, so if you bought five of them for a 5.1 surround setup, you'd have to go around and adjust each of the five speakers any time you wanted to change the volume level - that doesn't seem like what Adam Audio intended) I think from a theoretical perspective, you're probably right, there is a more efficient way to go about it, but this appears to be the intended configuration/use of the products I've selected. Not a pain at all, I welcome any suggestions and constructive criticisms you might have! That's why we're here.
post #11 of 14
Quote:
Part of the problem is that the SPDIF output from the computer is fixed. You cannot adjust the output volume from the computer when using SPDIF output. After a little googling, I found that's pretty standard behavior for PC audio devices. (Maybe with some higher-end pro gear, you can adjust the SPDIF output level, but most of that gear doesn't work well under Linux).
What a piece of *@#$&*( Sorry have no respect for flat out laziness sometimes, and that one is, if they don't have a basic hardware mixer capable of it though.... http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php/Softvol http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php/Ho..._master_volume That will do software volume control before it gets to your sound card. I can probably give you a hand setting it up if you need.
Quote:
The input gain adjustment on the A7's is very limited. It goes from -60db to +6 db. That's it. Plus, apparently, the analog outputs of the DAC are providing a much higher gain than the A7's are expecting. I have to have the A7's input gain turned down almost all the way, to about -50 db to have a normal volume level. Below -50db I can't hear anything, and above -45db, I'm afraid I'll damage the speakers it's so loud and has so much distortion. If I set to A7's input gain to 0, I have no doubt it would blow out the speakers instantly. So the vast majority of the adjustment range, from -45 db, to +6 db, is unusable. The gain adjustment is a round knob, and out of 360 degrees of rotation, I have about 5 degrees (like 1mm of movement) where it provides a useful volume adjustment. Not usable at all.
That sounds very odd on those monitors to be honest. Again the softvol plugin will do what you need.
Quote:
My reading on these products in particular is that this is the intended approach. All reviews I've read of the Stello DA100/HP100 had them driving powered studio monitors, which is what I'm doing. Further, all reviews I read of the A7 monitors had the input gain adjustment on 0, and used a pre-amp to control the output volume.
Based off of what you told me, that gives you the option of inducing distortion, which honestly is not the right way of doing things. You should have the gain on the monitors set so that you can get the strongest signal possible into them, and not distort.
Quote:
I think from a theoretical perspective, you're probably right, there is a more efficient way to go about it, but this appears to be the intended configuration/use of the products I've selected.
If all you are doing is reducing the signal, then not as much noise will be induced. Some will likely be induced just by the addition of the extra device, but not very much indeed. That really only leaves the possible coloring of the signal, which as I mentioned earlier, I would have to look up to check on Seablade
post #12 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seablade View Post
What a piece of *@#$&*( Sorry have no respect for flat out laziness sometimes, and that one is, if they don't have a basic hardware mixer capable of it though.... http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php/Softvol http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php/Ho..._master_volume That will do software volume control before it gets to your sound card. I can probably give you a hand setting it up if you need.
I'll look into it, but I don't have high hopes that it can control the SPDIF output. Here's the list of sound cards I've tried: Sound Blaster Live PCI (model SB0220) Sound Blaster Live USB M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 PCI M-Audio Transit USB All of them have perfectly good mixers (The Audiophile 2496 had a particularly nice mixer) with many adjustments for all the various inputs and outputs - but none of them could adjust volume on SPDIF (coax or optical), only on the analog inputs and outputs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seablade View Post
If all you are doing is reducing the signal, then not as much noise will be induced. Some will likely be induced just by the addition of the extra device, but not very much indeed. That really only leaves the possible coloring of the signal, which as I mentioned earlier, I would have to look up to check on
I hesitate to look at the HP100 preamp as an 'extra device' only because this DA100 DAC is typically sold bundled with the HP100 preamp. In fact, the sales lady at Stello though it was a bit odd when I ordered the DA100 only, and mentioned that to me when I called back to order the HP100. She was curious why I would do that since everyone normally orders them both together as a pair. Again, they're typically sold together and intended to be used together regardless of what type of monitors are used. It's a bit different, since the majority of the other DAC's I've seen out there have a pre-amp (and headphone circuit) integrated with the DAC. The DA100 is one of the very few that does not, which is why you also need the HP100 to get the normal functionality you would expect from most other DACs out there. So really, adding the HP100 to my DA100 gives the equivalent functionality of most other brands of DACs, it just does it with two 'boxes' instead of one.
post #13 of 14
Quote:
It's a bit different, since the majority of the other DAC's I've seen out there have a pre-amp (and headphone circuit) integrated with the DAC. The DA100 is one of the very few that does not, which is why you also need the HP100 to get the normal functionality you would expect from most other DACs out there. So really, adding the HP100 to my DA100 gives the equivalent functionality of most other brands of DACs, it just does it with two 'boxes' instead of one.
But in most cases, the headphone amp is used to drive headphones
Quote:
I'll look into it, but I don't have high hopes that it can control the SPDIF output.
If it is working, it will control the output. There really is no way for it not to. SPDIF does not only send one volume level, while it is a digital signal, it transmits much more detail than 1 bit depth per sample If it only transmitted 1 bit depth, it would not be used for anything serious at all. 1Bit technology as you see on some products, is a bit different. At any rate, this controls the information sent to the hardware driver, and raises or lowers the volume in a pure software method(By raising or lowering the value of the floats(I think ALSA uses floats, I would have to look it up) sent to the device, before it ever gets to the outputs. Seablade
post #14 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seablade View Post
But in most cases, the headphone amp is used to drive headphones
Haha very funny. Here's the review I was looking for (with nice photos) http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=229294 Note how the other DAC products have the pre-amp and headphone amp capabilities integrated. The DA100/HP100 is the only one that's a two-part design. DA100/HP100 are both "half-width" sized, in the pics, you can see how when placed next to one another, they together equal the size of a standard component. Same functionality, just implemented in two devices instead of one. You're making it sound like I'm shoehorning some ghetto thing in there that doesn't belong! Edit: Looks like the HP100 is arriving later today, so I'll let you know how it works out! Edit2: Finally have all the cables and parts to make everything work. So it's an SB Live USB -> toslink -> Stello DA100 -> Cardas 300B interconnects -> Stello HP100 -> AudioQuest Scarlet Viper interconnect -> ADAM A7's. And it's totally, completely, awesome. More of a hi-fi listening setup than an audio editing setup, but the sound is simply amazing, as if the musicians are performing live right in front of me. Amazing. I'm very pleased with this setup!
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