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Everything just works with Windows, when will linux catch up?

post #1 of 52
7/18/07 at 2:55am
Thread Starter 
Wow.

ok well that settles it for me. Everyone goes on and on about how big a pain it is to install and configure linux, and how nice it is that 'everything just works' under windows. The other night I installed and configured a Slack 11 box in right at one hour, including installing several software packages. Tonight I installed Win MCE on my new hard drive - with the driver CD right here (no hunting for the correct drivers), so far I'm over 2 hours, and I'm not done yet. That's windows, the critical updates, firefox, and avast!. And just for the record NOTHING worked until I popped in the drivers CD. Also I was just informed (via pop-up) that I need to reboot- again. That puts me at ~8 reboots so far. know how many times I had to reboot to install/configure Slack? None, zero, zip nada. The only reason people think windows is easier is they've never had to reinstall windows from scratch - that or they're just that much more used to it, and cant really make an apples to apples comparison. Oh, and the linux install included a quick format. The Windows disk was formatted before I started the install.
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post #2 of 52
7/18/07 at 3:08am
dr... you totally read my mind, and i've been saying this for a while. now whereas the vista installer is faster than the XP installer, its better but not quite. A base install of say ubuntu takes about 15 minutes, installing automatix takes 1 minute, and then automatix runs another 1/2 hour... so under an hour you have a completely working system. With Windows...install OS (30min for Vista, 90min for XP), install drivers (10min..assuming you have cd/backup), reboot a billion times (10 minutes), install firefox + thunderbird + pidgin, install AV + spyware + firewall, install every other app you will use because windows comes with NOTHING unlike say a distro like Sabayon includes everything and the kitchen sink (installer takes 1/2 hour...but once you reboot thats it, everything is already there and just works).
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post #3 of 52
7/18/07 at 3:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by drlouis View Post
Wow. ok well that settles it for me. Everyone goes on and on about how big a pain it is to install and configure linux, and how nice it is that 'everything just works' under windows. The other night I installed and configured a Slack 11 box in right at one hour, including installing several software packages. Tonight I installed Win MCE on my new hard drive - with the driver CD right here (no hunting for the correct drivers), so far I'm over 2 hours, and I'm not done yet. That's windows, the critical updates, firefox, and avast!. And just for the record NOTHING worked until I popped in the drivers CD. Also I was just informed (via pop-up) that I need to reboot- again. That puts me at ~8 reboots so far. know how many times I had to reboot to install/configure Slack? None, zero, zip nada. The only reason people think windows is easier is they've never had to reinstall windows from scratch - that or they're just that much more used to it, and cant really make an apples to apples comparison. Oh, and the linux install included a quick format. The Windows disk was formatted before I started the install.
I have to agree with you on several points Doc. I just did an experiment at work, where I had to FDISK a laptop with a Windows installation that went bad. I put XP Pro SP2 back on it, and at the same time I had an older, clunkier laptop that was given to me to be a development laptop. On this machine, I installed Ubuntu 7.04 after getting rid of the Windows XP Pro on it. It took just over a half hour to get the Ubuntu up and running on the clunker, and had no problems with the install. On the other hand, I still have not got the correct drivers to load back up on the newer Windows laptop, and all of the information I have read and collected on the subject has not helped one bit. My clunker laptop only has 768MB RAM with a P4, and it is actually speedy now that I have Ubuntu on there. The Windows laptop has 1GB RAM and a 2 Ghz Core Duo processor, and while it is speedier than before, I have no sound coming out, and drivers that are no good on 4 other pieces of hardware. Anyway, good going Doc- Nice post!
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post #4 of 52
7/18/07 at 3:14am
but you're really smart and know what to do. it's not like anyone can do that kind of thing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiv
Anyway, he wanted Ubuntu Studio - which doesn't have a GUI installer like the vanilla Ubuntu. I gave him the Ubuntu Studio CD and stood back to watch my 14 year old brother install his first ever Linux Distro with no problems at all!
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=503001
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post #5 of 52
7/18/07 at 3:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by drlouis View Post
Wow.

ok well that settles it for me. Everyone goes on and on about how big a pain it is to install and configure linux, and how nice it is that 'everything just works' under windows. The other night I installed and configured a Slack 11 box in right at one hour, including installing several software packages. Tonight I installed Win MCE on my new hard drive - with the driver CD right here (no hunting for the correct drivers), so far I'm over 2 hours, and I'm not done yet. That's windows, the critical updates, firefox, and avast!. And just for the record NOTHING worked until I popped in the drivers CD. Also I was just informed (via pop-up) that I need to reboot- again. That puts me at ~8 reboots so far. know how many times I had to reboot to install/configure Slack? None, zero, zip nada. The only reason people think windows is easier is they've never had to reinstall windows from scratch - that or they're just that much more used to it, and cant really make an apples to apples comparison. Oh, and the linux install included a quick format. The Windows disk was formatted before I started the install.

Installing Linux (at least the Ubuntu and PCLinuxOS versions) is so easy even I can do it, Louis. Of course, I haven't actually figured out how to use Linux for much yet.

Oh, well. At least I can get online.
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post #6 of 52
7/18/07 at 4:27am
Quote:
Of course, I haven't actually figured out how to use Linux for much yet.
DISCLAIMER: This post is partially in reply to BMWRob, but also a general post for anyone thinking about Linux. What do you WANT to do with it? Djembe, while I certainly appreciate threads like the one you posted, it also illustrates the problem that BMWRob so pointed out. Many people are trying linux because they hear about it, but don't know what they WANT out of it. As such they get frustrated trying tons of new and interesting things until they break something. This is a VERY common occurance with recent 'converts' Some people take their now broken box, and use it as a learning experience, and dive deeper into linux. Most people on this forum probably fall into that category. Others take it and say, well my windows box never did this, or I could fix this on windows easy. Thing is they don't know what they want coming in, just come to experiment and play, and then lose their interest when the new factor wears off and they haven't realized they haven't searched for what they actually want to do with it, which is hopefully to use the computer, not make it look purty(Though Linux can do that as well obviously. So this of course brings me back to what I asked BMWRob above... For those interested in trying it, What do you WANT to do with it? Start there, Office/Business Apps? Look them up, OpenOffice is easily the most well known but there are others. Games? Check out Wine and Cedega if you can't aprt with some windows games, but also look around at what linux games might be availiable. 3D? Blender is one of many options. Audio? As most people here can attest I can go on that topic for a LONG time with suggestions as I use Linux professionally for my audio work, even though I also own other tools like ProTools, or have in the past used and owned things like CuBase, Nuendo, etc. The main thing comes down to, pick the right tool for the job. Know what the job is before you start picking. So again... What do you WANT to do? Seablade
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post #7 of 52
7/18/07 at 4:33am
And now that I have done that post, I will post my agreement post...

I recently had to put Windows on a HD in my workstation as I needed to build a level for an application I was putting into a game company I want to work for, in a certain toolset that only runs on windows(Or did at that time, NWN2 has since then gotten working in Wine, before Cedega I might even add). After putting in the Windows disk, and waiting for a couple of hours, I got it installed, GREAT I thought...

Except I had no network support, no video support, no audio support, pretty much could do NOTHING. I was lucky and found my driver disk for my Motherboard I hadn't touched in years(The disk that is) and managed to get networking up and running, and then go through and download all the drivers by hand.

Now I can compile a Gentoo install in under 24 hours. I can install Elive in a matter of an hour and have a fully working system, video, audio, and networking, and have almost all the apps I want for 3D, audio, graphics, office, etc, at my fingertips by default. Those that I don't have I can spend 5 minutes and have them downloaded for me and installed with a single command.

People say it is harder to install Linux because not all hardware is supported. It is true that Linux doesn't support all hardware, but Windows supports next to NONE. It is the hardware manufacturers you are downloading the drivers from, not MS. A default windows install supports VERY little, and had I not had the driver disk from the manufacturer on this workstation, I would not have been able to use it at all.

When Linux works, it works WELL. When it doesn't, it is MUCH easier to fix IMO. Pick your tool.

Seablade
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post #8 of 52
7/20/07 at 7:56am
I got email notification of this thread, but ignored it thinking it was another flamebait. I swung by today expecting to add some other points of view, maybe pour cooling water on some trolls, and find a linux love fest.

Who would have guessed?
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post #9 of 52
7/21/07 at 1:14am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisLilley View Post
I got email notification of this thread, but ignored it thinking it was another flamebait. I swung by today expecting to add some other points of view, maybe pour cooling water on some trolls, and find a linux love fest. Who would have guessed?
sry for the misleading title. I was poking fun at all the posts (mostly on other sites) exclaiming: "I give up! linux doesn't support my hardware/is too hard to get set up. I never have this trouble with windows - everything just works. Linux needs to get it's act together if it wants to be competetive."
Quote:
Originally Posted by seablade
What do you WANT to do with it? <snip>
I agree, and in many ways this describes me starting out. Nice post.
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post #10 of 52
7/25/07 at 5:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by seablade View Post

People say it is harder to install Linux because not all hardware is supported.

People say it's harder to install Linux because installing Windows is basically:
Take new PC out of box.
Turn on.
Choose name.
Done.
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post #11 of 52
7/25/07 at 6:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by YankeeDeuce View Post
People say it's harder to install Linux because installing Windows is basically:
Take new PC out of box.
Turn on.
Choose name.
Done.

Good point. Just for my own education, is it possible to make a Linux installation that also defers the 'what is your user name' and 'what is the name of this computer' until the eventual end-user selects them? The distros I have seen ask that question right at the start, which would make a pre-installed shrink-wrapped Linux a bit harder.

But maybe this is already taken care of and I just don't know.
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post #12 of 52
7/25/07 at 10:44am
Of course Linux is going to install faster, it doesn't have all the integrated "crap" that windows has. However, I have used Linux, and it's nice when you have a little extra time to learn the ins and outs, but it's much easier finding apps for windows.
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post #13 of 52
7/25/07 at 1:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by risin View Post
but it's much easier finding apps for windows.

for the love of god this is probably the #1 thing that linux has an advantage in. i think installation even more so is a pain in windows. to get an app for windows you have to go to publisher website. download, double click installer, click a million "next"s and "agree"s, delete installer. in linux the process is so much easier. bust out the terminal, put in file manager command for the app... as in "apt-get install firefox" or "pacman -S firefox" or "emerge firefox"...done. 1 step.
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post #14 of 52
7/25/07 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by YankeeDeuce View Post
People say it's harder to install Linux because installing Windows is basically: Take new PC out of box. Turn on. Choose name. Done.
I decided to be a bit more debateable. No a standard windows install is NOT just take new PC out of box, Turn on Choose Name. That has absolutely nothing to do with the windows install at all. In that case Windows is already installed(With typically lots of crap no one ever wants that take up resources) and all you are doing is picking a username. Half time time you still have to install updates, DECENT Anti-Virus, Anti-Spyware, and a DECENT firewall on top of all of that. A typical windows install consists of..
Code:
-Put Disk in
-Reformat Drive
-Tell it, yes you really DO want to reformat the Windows OS
-wait...
-Pick a partition to install on
-Install
-wait...
-Reboot into HD
-wait more
-Set up Date/Time/etc.
-wait more
-reboot into windows
-wait for it to detect hardware
-install hardware
-reboot
-repeat previous 3 steps for all hardware on system that windows detects(And general installs with generic drivers that don't work well).  During this step IF you have the driver disk, and have at least a slight clue of what you are doing, you can provide drivers from it to skip steps later on.
now for hardware not detected, for each peice put in the driver disk
-Run install program
-wait
-reboot
-repeat previous 4 steps for any hardware installed with generic drivers or not detected by windows.
-Now that all that is done, time to deal with basic software security, so either install firewall, Anti-Virus, Anti-Spyware from disk, or more likely go online and download each program individually from their website.  In general a reboot is probably necessary after each of these since they affect system services.
-Ok now that basic software security is taken care of, hopefully you haven't gotten infected in doing so(XP SP1 anyone?) time to download updated drivers for your hardware.  So go online to each manufacturer's website and again download driver updates and install, rebooting again after drivers install.
-After all of that, assuming there are no hardware conflicts, you now have a working and usable Windows install
If you think most Linux installs are more complicated than your standard windows installs, I got a bridge I would like to sell you.
Code:
BASIC Linux install(You certainly can get more complicated than this if you choose)
-Put disk in
-Repartition if necessary to make room
-wait
-Reformat and install(Been a while since I done automated installers, this is still one step on most Linux installers right?)
-Wait
-Pick Username/ Set Up date and time/ Etc
-Reboot
-(This step is just assuming Ubuntu Install where the user wants the legally questionable things and 3D on Nvidia or ATi)  Open Package Management and install Automatix
-Run Automatix
-wait
-Reboot here I believe(Though really is not necessary, restarting X is all most people want as long as the drivers are loaded)
-Done
-And now you have a useable linux system
Please notes the lack of installing software from websites, the lack of repeatedly installing hardware and rebooting, and then downloading driver updates and rebooting, etc. This of course assumes that all hardware is supported(See previous post to which the quoted was a reply to) but dang... For most linux installs it is a cakewalk compared to Windows installs. Seablade
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post #15 of 52
7/25/07 at 1:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by risin View Post
Of course Linux is going to install faster, it doesn't have all the integrated "crap" that windows has. However, I have used Linux, and it's nice when you have a little extra time to learn the ins and outs, but it's much easier finding apps for windows.

In as far as integrated crap, it all depends on the distro.

Some distros come with EVERYTHING and the kitchen sink. They do install a lot of crap. Not going to argue that in the least.

Most however install what the average person wants or needs.

In as far as finding apps for windows, maybe you mean picking apps for windows? Most distros nowadays, and for quite some time, use a package management system, where literally finding the app generally means picking it from a list. I am not joking here, the list is usually on your computer and all you do is select it and hit install.

Seablade
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post #16 of 52
7/25/07 at 2:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisLilley View Post
Good point. Just for my own education, is it possible to make a Linux installation that also defers the 'what is your user name' and 'what is the name of this computer' until the eventual end-user selects them? The distros I have seen ask that question right at the start, which would make a pre-installed shrink-wrapped Linux a bit harder.

But maybe this is already taken care of and I just don't know.

Explain what you mean? Most automated install distros I have used set up username and computer name after the install so they can write it directly onto the disk.

Seablade
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post #17 of 52
7/25/07 at 6:05pm
i think this is what he means:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Ub...aller_Overview

and thus it kinda proves his point that linux can do it too. where its fully installed, just on first boot it asks you for login info and then you are good to go
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post #18 of 52
7/25/07 at 10:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by abf View Post
i think this is what he means:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Ub...aller_Overview

and thus it kinda proves his point that linux can do it too. where its fully installed, just on first boot it asks you for login info and then you are good to go

Thats exactly what I was asking, yes. Thanks!
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post #19 of 52
7/25/07 at 10:36pm
Oh its all quite true

I showed this to a few friends of mine and they thought doc was an incompetent windows user trying to just plain flame Windows and praise linux fake propaganda style. They had no idea really installing Windows was an annoying/long thing.
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post #20 of 52
7/26/07 at 1:44am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwilightVampire View Post
Oh its all quite true I showed this to a few friends of mine and they thought doc was an incompetent windows user trying to just plain flame Windows and praise linux fake propaganda style. They had no idea really installing Windows was an annoying/long thing.
it could be true. I might, in fact be an incompetent windows user. But I've installed Windows from scratch dozens of times, and I've got at least 90% of my total computer time on Windows. But I'm not all that surprised I guess, most windows users have probably never installed it from scratch.
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