New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Ferrari 3200 confused - Page 6

post #101 of 120
There aren't enough real-world benchmarks of either CPU to say for sure which one is best, and that represents a MAJOR problem with all notebook reviews in my opinion. I'd like to see a notebook review going through the same suite of tests as a proper desktop review, like for instance this excellent desktop review done by Ace's Hardware:
http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=65000304

post #102 of 120
I'd like to stress again that all these apps and benchmarks are optimized for Pentiums. Only when 64 bit Windows and 64 bit versions of these apps are released (in the very near future) will reliable comparisons be possible. The Pentiums probably won't see much improvement , but we may see up to 35% better performance from the AMD 64's. The almost identical benchmarks won't be so identical then. Let's not forget that LV AMD 64 chips with 1MB L2 cache are coming soon as well.
post #103 of 120
cutting edge tech is always evolving
the only viable arguments you can ever make are real world comparisons with what you currently have.
how can you know you're going to get 35% better performance until you actually see it, and i'm not talking about just in games.
when the 64bit OS is readily available to me and the software designers of all my current appz optimize their products for 64bit, then i'll look at the a64 benches and make a decision as to whether i should buy an a64-M over a dothan.

i'm not some intel fanboy. my last four desktop CPUs were AMD. when it comes to notebooks the game changes though, i've realized that. have you?
post #104 of 120
This is getting out of hand!!

I think it is important to look at 2 things we have learnt.

1) There is no appreciable performance difference between the P-M and the A64. Each has its own strong suit. The P-M seems to be slightly faster, though I firmly believe the A64 will trounce it if and when XP64 finally rears its ugly head.

2) Benchmarking is not an exact science. Benchmarks work by performing a bunch of calculations (rendering, floating point, whatever) many times, and calculating (based on some points system) how well the machine accomplished the tests. There are some obvious flaws with this approach.
i) How can anyone know if the scoring system the benchmark uses is appropriate for more than a comparison with itself? In other words, does a 10% better score in Aquamark necessarily transfer to a 10% better framerate, or is the score only meaningful in the Aquamark benchmark.
ii) Testing CPUs is not obvious. CPUs are optimized in different ways, as are the programs which test them. I have stated this many times... but once more... the A64 destroys any CPU for compiling. I *think* that is because it has more registers. The Dothan does very well at heavy load user apps (Photoshop, Cinema4D, etc...), these benefit from its 2MB L2 cache. Thus, when you write a CPU benchmark, you can NEVER test whether a CPU is always better than another one.
iii) Consider the software platform you are testing the hardware on. I guarantee that Windows XP (nor any modern OS) does not provide a stable environment for testing. At any given time the OS can decide to swap the benchmarking thread out of the CPU to do something else (defrag system memory, check page table consistency, evaluate other threads for execution, etc...). Worse than that, the complexity of modern OSes makes it such that you cannot assume that these random actions will be the same, or even equivalent each time the machine is booted, and the test is run. When supercomputers are tested, they are usually benchmarked on an OS which can guarantee no external interferance, and thus a valid result.
iv) Assuming that i through iii are of no effect, we have problems keeping a consistent software test environment. Different drivers, and OS patches can make a difference in testing.

So, all that to say, quit this benchmarking hard-on, be satisfied with the non-perfect world of FPS testing. Sure, the software is not the same, the GPUs might be clocked differently etc... but for all intents and purposes it is as close as you will get to perfect. And at the end of the day, if there were a large performance delta between the systems, it would show up in a noticible (at play time) FPS difference.
post #105 of 120
1) probably true
2) most of the things in here are wrong =/

i dunno what to say other than read the thread some more, look at the benches, the systems, etc. ive given up arguing about true data. i mean,

the A64 destroys any CPU for compiling

...
post #106 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aikeo
2) a lot of things in here are wrong =/
I'd like to know what. I was thinking those are some general statements about problems with all forms of benchmarking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aikeo
i dunno what to say other than read the thread some more, look at the benches, the systems, etc. ive given up arguing about true data. i mean,

the A64 destroys any CPU for compiling

...
I know it sounds silly, but it comes from personal experience (at least under Linux).
I have compiled the same large app using the P4, P-M and A64 under 32bit Linux (2.6.5) and gcc 3.3.
An A64 3400+ beat a P4 3.4 which beat the P-M 1.7 (Banias tho... I guess I should try and find a way to retest with a Dothan).
The A64 in total beat out the P-M by 34%, which I thought was rather impressive, and the P-4 by 20%, which is decent.
post #107 of 120
sorry but i cant work in linux like i can in windows, so i'm stuck with it
thats another subtle meaning of the term "real world" benches

what kind of a64 3400+ test system, desktop or notebook
post #108 of 120
unfortunately a desktop... so it is not an exact comparison...

but before I get flamed, I have read on a Linux users forum, that someone with an A64 DTR was stunned at how quickly he compiled Mozilla (which is usually a day long job)... so I think the speed boost comes from the chip's architecture.
post #109 of 120
not an exact comparison is a rather large understatement
even so if you overclocked a 2.0 dothan to 2.4 and then compared the app compilation time in linux to the a64 3400+ i think you'd be very surprised to find that your differential was marginal if any. (via french dudes)
post #110 of 120
I disagree that it is a large understatement.

DTR A64s and Desktop A64s are mostly the same (cringing in preparation for being told I'm wrong )
Also, most of the things which slow laptops down over desktops (HD and GPU specifically) are not contributing factors to compile times.

I'm wary of x86-secret. I read that they often make mistakes in their benchmarking... dunno, but I generally don't give credence to OC benchmarks.
Also, when the 2.4 dothan is available there will be faster A64s available. And while many people compare clock to clock, I prefer making a price/performance comparison and taking into account the general availability of that which is being tested.
post #111 of 120
To provide some backup to the compile time improvements I stated:

http://www.thejemreport.com/news_index41.html

"Having more and wider general purpose registers means that memory can be used much more efficiently and memory traffic can be minimalized, which in turn allows compilers to compile programs to work much faster on your machine".

http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/200...n-fx53-28.html

I know these are desktops... but that should be ok for a compile test.
The Athlon64 3000+ beats the Pentium 3.4EE compiling with Visual Studio .NET (M$ product) under Windows XP.
This means a 32bit OS running a 32bit application and the A64 trounced the P4...
It isn't apples to apples, but it is a good indicator.

The search continues...
post #112 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by agentsim
I'm wary of x86-secret. I read that they often make mistakes in their benchmarking... dunno, but I generally don't give credence to OC benchmarks.
Also, when the 2.4 dothan is available there will be faster A64s available. And while many people compare clock to clock, I prefer making a price/performance comparison and taking into account the general availability of that which is being tested.
you're probably right about the faster a64s when the 2.4 ghz stock dothans become available. however you'll also have to factor in alviso at that point =/

i'd agree in the argument that the 755 dothan is overpriced right now, i see about a $200 diff between that and the 3400+. i think that it might be early to assume the 755 is going to stay that high, though.

i make no amends for the p4EE, that thing sucks imo. overall i'm really just contending that it is amazing the new dothans can even compete with these high end desktop architectures. from my perspective having a $1700 notebook that performs almost as well -- for what i need to do -- as my friend's custom desktop machine is a pretty crazy thing.
post #113 of 120
On that I will agree, and call this discussion quits

Personally I can't wait to see A64 performance under XP64, and the resulting firestorm when we get to see Dothan 2.4... and dual Dothan desktops
post #114 of 120
me too, i'm earnestly awaiting xp64 benches. but knowing microsoft it might be much longer than my need for a new notebook can handle
post #115 of 120
aikeo, what are the benefits of the alviso chipset? you mention it like its going to be a big improvement over the current 855GME one (i'm sure it will be regardless), so what's gonna be added? dual channel memory, agp 8x/PCI-E, anything good like that?
post #116 of 120
the biggest thing for me is the 533 mhz fsb
makes pc3200 mem actually applicable

According to Intel, Alviso will increase the Pentium M's frontside bus speed to 533MHz, add support for DDR 2 SDRAM, PCI Express and Serial ATA, and incorporate Intel's Hi-Definition Audio and third-generation Media Graphics Accelerator 900 technology.

Q1 2005 prolly
post #117 of 120
oh, ok. what was the max that the 855 supported, DDR266 or 333? i forget since i thought a 400fsb only supported 266 or something, but i see alot of people using 333.
post #118 of 120
pc2700 is supported with 855
post #119 of 120
My intent was not to deface a cpu as being inferior to the other. I was just trying to clarify certain areas of cpu computing (gaming, graphic rendering), as they were asked by people who needed to know, in order to come to a notebook buying decision.

ntrekie: so which is better for gaming.
snorre: The low-power Mobile Athlon 64 2800+ is by far the best for gaming, like most other Athlon 64 processors


ray-: so: next question is: should I get an A64 of the dothan cpu for best performance in graphics programs like: photoshop, illustrator, etc... ?

Both of these cpus will kill for gaming as the bottleneck for gaming performance is based on the gpu and not cpu. There is not a significant and clear advantage of having one over the other. We can examine synthetic and real world benchmarks all day and find that in certain benchmarks one cpu is slightly better than the other (this is NEGLIBLE), but the bottom line is that there is no clear winner, it is not a night and day difference. Either CPU is not "BY FAR" better than the other in regards to gaming and the best way I can put it, is that as of right now, they are 'comparable'.

And again on the subject of media/graphic rendering abilities, there is not a night and day difference between the two CPUS, HOWEVER, in this particular area, the P-M across its top tier line (1.7, 1.8, 2.0) perform better by 5-10% in real world media/graphic rendering. Still not a big leverage over the other, so take that as you will. I was just trying to answer ray's question.

"I'd like to stress again that all these apps and benchmarks are optimized for Pentiums. --ferrari3200"

While I have no information that proves that games/applications are catered to perform better with Pentium CPUS (Isnt that a broad statement in itself?), I cant comment on that and my only take on it is, "thats life". Blame big Microsoft and its monopoly stronghold on everything PC related. (If its true) Ferrari3200, would you care to bring up some hard evidence and research to shed some light on that claim? I have no stance on it, so I dont know.

------

I'm trying to be as objective as possible on the whole discussion. My desktop is actually an A64, because it IS the better performer in 3dgaming when compared to similar P4 systems. Still not a night and day difference, but they just happened to be cheaper and run cooler (Prescott is a joke).

However, in a notebook solution. My need for the highest form of mobility/batterylife , quietest operation (lower heat), along with my need for performance in other areas led me to getting a P-M.

And my laptop before this one was an Mitac8335 (voodoo m:855, hypersonic ax6) with AMD64 3400 DTR+, so I am not one sided on the issue, I have used both systems and tested both systems.

http://notebookforums.com/showthread...hlight=arrived

Ok lunchbreak over
post #120 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by snorre
Anyway, how many raymarks did you get on the RealStorm Benchmark 2004 (default settings) then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rincewind
The sooner I get done replying to your everypost to disprove the P-M over the A64, the sooner I can download that thing and run it. It hasnt even been 24 hours since you first asked for it... Sorry I dont work for you, I have another job and I will test it when I get around to it. Asking for the results everytime you post will not get you them any faster
Well, its been over 3 days now since I first asked you about this and I'm still waiting for you to post your Raymark score so where is it?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Other Brand Notebook Reviews