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need advice. 2 lappys from mwave (cant choose 1)

post #1 of 77
7/8/04 at 12:51pm
Thread Starter 
Ok so there are 2 lappys, the CL56 which i am planning to get stock plus 1.7 dothan (+$85) and 512mb ram (+$65) for a grand total of $1400 even w/o shipping (shipping is $19.90).

So i was looking at that last night, and got accross to this one (config-stock, +512mb ram) (the sucky part on this one, no integrated wireless) and the grand total here is $1315 w/o shipping. Ok, so I am giving up the wifi, and the longer battery life in favor of a 64-bit cpu. i think this is both of my needs/wants colide. I can finaly have a lappy with a good gpu AND a amd64 (without paying 3000+ for mayhem g3).

So, if i dont have an issue with using a PC card, what is the better bang for teh buck that is not going to be outdated when i finaly put it up on ebay 4 years from now?

I don't care much for benchmarks, so in real life (FarCry gaming) which system will come out on top (considering every single other spec is the same, gpu, hd, ram) ?
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post #2 of 77
7/8/04 at 1:11pm
athlon64 will be the obvious victor. a 1.7Dothan can't compare. To me, it's obvious that the athlon64 is the way for u to go. The system saves you a few bucks and performs very well. And since u were considered the r3000z, it's obvious that battery life is not a huge priority. I say go with the athlon64. U want a computer for 4 years, you need an athlon64 with a sweet gpu (M11)
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post #3 of 77
7/8/04 at 1:20pm
noo... i disagree

unless i were getting something like a a64 3400+ system, i would rather have a 1.7 dothan chip. i don't believe the 3000+ will be an "obvious victor" in real world comparisons to the 735, the dothan is plenty quick for what i need to do. if you can show me some benches of a 3000+ vastly outperforming a 1.7 dothan, i might change my opinion. if you are planning to run 64bit XP soon and are going to use 64bit appz before the life expectancy of your laptop runs out, then that would be a consideration for getting the a64 system. longhorn is too far away from your current purchase to factor in much, imo.

that 3000+ laptop you're looking at is much heavier, wider, and thicker than the cl56. you mentioned the decrase in batt life earlier. i would venture to say the advantages of the P-M system could be overshadowed by a cost reduction, but since you can get an mwave cl56 with a 735 for <$1400, with wireless... i definitely get the cl56, imo
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post #4 of 77
7/8/04 at 2:36pm
I got to go out right now, but will post my response to the stupid statement above when I get back.
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post #5 of 77
7/8/04 at 2:38pm
=0
ill recalibrate before you decide to go beserk, and look silly. a few areas where P-M is strong:

gaming
http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_cont...id=gmso&page=6

graphic design
http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_cont...id=gmso&page=7

mp3 encoding
http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_cont...id=gmso&page=8


areas where the high-end a64/p4 architecture is better:
sisoft
sciencemark
mpeg encoding

This brings us to the Intel’s Pentium-M (Dothan) processors, which in our opinion continue to be the best overall mobile chips on the market. While the Athlon64 and Pentium 4 models for the most part can beat the high-end Pentium-M 755 in benchmarks, the difference is surprisingly small considering the huge architectural differences between these notebooks. With a fairly slow FSB and an aging memory controller, the Pentium-M’s are still able to hold their own and give performance when it’s needed. The huge 2MB cache of the chips makes applications and games quite smooth, and the fact that these notebooks create such little heat and consume so little power makes it a very attractive package. We’re willing to take a small performance hit in order to get the low-power and long-battery life benefits of the Centrino architecture. Judging by the response we’ve seen thus far to the new Pentium-M processors, a lot of our readers feel similar to us in this regard. In any case, while consumers are getting increasingly disinterested in new desktop processor innovations, the mobile market is getting quite exciting with every new architecture we look at.

keep in mind that your system will be a a64 3000+, not the a64 3400+ found in the high-end DTR system used in the benches i have shown.

source: http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_cont...d=gmso&page=10
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post #6 of 77
7/8/04 at 3:20pm
Thread Starter 
Well, i do want to see Tourney's rebutal but until then I'll post my own 2 cents.

As far as I see it by those benchmarks, the differance between the 3400+ and the 1.8 dothan is minimal. the differance between 3700+ and 3400+ is minimal, so my guess is that 3000+ isnt too far bellow the 3400+ and if you do the whole 1.7*1.5 deal you get 2.55 and as we know 3>2.55 so the AMD is "rated" to outperform the Dothan and it is also clocked to do so 1.8>1.7. The Dothan benefits from the 2mb cache (compared to the 1mb in amd) but loses points on the slower FSB. So in real life, they are preaty close although they couldn't be further appart. In real life, i wouldn't tell a differance.

For my life, i will be on the leash most of the time, but if i do go away from a desk, i think that AMD machine will get me lets say about 2.5-3 hours, doesn't match the 5 of the CL56 but still reasonable.

(not to even mention the Compaq, because this AMD smokes the compaq 5 times over and it eliminated the need for me to buy more ram..mwave doesnt rip you off that much...and no need to change the HD...5400 is no 7200 but way better than 4200)

I'll agree on the wireless point, built in is a nice thing. You press a button and you're online. A PC card is just another thing to lug around with you and worry that it doesn't get lost or break. But this laptop will spend less than 10% of it's life in a bag, i am buying to USE IT, not BAG IT.

And at this price it blows teh Dell out of the picture.

I want to see where this post goes, and i think i'll make my final call faster than expected, but not buy till later anyway, maybe mwave wills stick a faster cpu in there.

I am interested, can somebody ID this thing? Tell me what other names it goes by so i can find some reviews/quality things about it?
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post #7 of 77
7/8/04 at 3:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by abf
my guess is that 3000+ isnt too far bellow the 3400+ and if you do the whole 1.7*1.5 deal you get 2.55 and as we know 3>2.55 so the AMD is "rated" to outperform the Dothan and it is also clocked to do so 1.8>1.7.
the 3000+ is actually clocked at 2 Ghz, the 3400+ at 2.2 GHz, the 3700+ at 2.4 GHz. you would be better off comparing this to a the 1.7, 2.0 Ghz of the Dothans, but remember that the P-M architectures are more efficient per clock cycle (ergo the ~1.5x multiplier arguments)

Quote:
Originally Posted by abf

So in real life, they are preaty close although they couldn't be further appart. In real life, i wouldn't tell a differance.
if you do heavy scientific application work, like a lot of floating-point number calculation, the a64 will be better just because of the way its architecture is designed. not sure what exactly you want to use the notebook for. i was assuming more traditional things, like the majority of laptop users out there today-- so yeah, in "real life" you wouldn't tell much difference.


Quote:
Originally Posted by abf
I'll agree on the wireless point, built in is a nice thing. You press a button and you're online. A PC card is just another thing to lug around with you and worry that it doesn't get lost or break. But this laptop will spend less than 10% of it's life in a bag, i am buying to USE IT, not BAG IT.
sure, yet another advantage. overall i'm just making the point that if you can get a dothan system with these advantages that will do everything you need it to do, all at the same price, why not.
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post #8 of 77
7/8/04 at 3:40pm
Quote:
Aikeo, you're first mistake in your assumptions is to extrapolate the GHz rating from the AMD naming schema
i believe you are talking to abf, not me...

Quote:
he WILL get better performance head to head on the Athlon64 system vs the Pentium M.
the point is the difference is marginal. ergo the "real world" arguments, that he agreed to above.
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post #9 of 77
7/8/04 at 3:45pm
Well, I saw the new possibility on mwave too, and was very tempted... but I ordered the CL56 (with 1.7 Dothan) anyways. For me, I am willing to give up a little performance (and thanks for the article link, Aikeo - that's really interesting - I'm not giving up much, if any) for smaller size, longer battery life, and integrated wireless. I travel a lot, and I already found the size and weight of my Latitude D400 work laptop annoying - but I can't handle the nonexistant gaming performance of ultraportables. The increase in size & weight to the CL56 is about as far as I'm going to go. Everything is a tradeoff - if we just wanted the most powerful computer possible, we wouldn't be using laptops - they still (and maybe always will) lag behind desktops. You just have to decide which tradeoffs you want to make.
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post #10 of 77
7/8/04 at 3:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiOctane
Also, given how long he expects to keep the system, I think it's safe to say that we will have true 64-bit OSes and applications. What will garner more in 4 years on ebay? The Athlon64.
thats a weird way to look at it, but i guess...
so uhh.. what do you think the sale price of a very outdated a64 system will be in 4 years on ebay? how much less would a very outdated dothan go for?

the point most people make is that the lifetime expectancy of a current laptop is less than the time to take 64bit to become fully realized in the mainstream audience, which you have subtly pointed out
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post #11 of 77
7/8/04 at 4:00pm
what's "definitely worth less?"

heh, think of what you're saying in terms of right now...
let's look on ebay for used laptops of 4 years ago. here's one:

DELL LATITUDE LAPTOP PIII 750 256MB/20GB/CD/10/100/56K
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...491715832&rd=1

that goes for what, $400 bucks? so i'm going to run xp on this machine, and take full advantage of the operating system over say, win2k or even win98?
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post #12 of 77
7/8/04 at 4:02pm
If i was buying a new desktop right now, i would without a doubt get a A64. But i still think the P-M is the best solution for a notebook at the moment.
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post #13 of 77
7/8/04 at 4:05pm
If i was buying a new desktop right now, i would without a doubt get a A64. But i still think the P-M is the best solution for a notebook at the moment.

anyway, that's the basic point.
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post #14 of 77
7/8/04 at 4:13pm
IMHO, I wouldn't worry too much about resale value in 4 years. The fact is, any chip you buy today will be outdated in 4 years. Roughly four years ago, Intel was talking about the upcoming launch of its 1.13GHz Pentium III ( see http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn...0hnpentium.xml ). You're not going to have a huge resale value either way.

I'd still just think about what really matters to you - if you want the strongest possible gaming and want to claim the best possible performance and don't really care about anything else, then go with the AMD64. I'm not sure that you're going to see much difference in the real world, but in some ways it is a sexier chip!

The fact that the future is 64 bit is a good point, although I'm skeptical just how fast the switch will be. After all, 64 bit processors have been in production for almost four years now... and we're only just now seeing them move into mass use (with the AMD64).

Personally, I figure I'll use this for two years, then give it to my wife, whose computer needs are currently at about a 1997 level of development!
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post #15 of 77
7/8/04 at 4:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aikeo
unless i were getting something like a a64 3400+ system, i would rather have a 1.7 dothan chip. i don't believe the 3000+ will be an "obvious victor" in real world comparisons to the 735, the dothan is plenty quick for what i need to do. if you can show me some benches of a 3000+ vastly outperforming a 1.7 dothan, i might change my opinion.
Quick question: am I going blind? You would rather have a 1.7GHz Dothan than an Athlon64 3000+ As you know, the 3000+ is an estimate of how the processor compares to a P4 in terms of GHz. Thus, you can expect performance close to or on par of a 3.06Ghz P4.
Now let's do a little multiplication. 1.7 x 1.5=2.55 Hmmmmm. What would you rather have 2.6GHz or 3.0Ghz. Of course they are both rough estimates and will perform different tasks at different rates but it seems to me that the athlon64 would be the obvious victor.
Hmmmm. So far, the athlon64 is looking like the better processor. But wait! There's more...The Intel 855 chipset supports memory running up to PC2700. However, the athlon64 system supports 3200 memory; this translates into even better performance.

Now Aikeo, I will teach you that fully reading the text can be helpful for making a correct reccomendation for a person.
abf said he would like the laptop to last for 4 years. Although any laptop will be outdated at that time, what would be more outdated? A 64 bit or 32 bit processor?
Yes, the size of kthe Athlon64 laptop is much greater than that of the CL56, but u must make sacrifices to get what is best for you.
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post #16 of 77
7/8/04 at 4:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roarak
If i was buying a new desktop right now, i would without a doubt get a A64. But i still think the P-M is the best solution for a notebook at the moment.
Yes, at the moment. But if you're buying and looking to a 4 year future with the laptop, then the athlon64 is the best solution.
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post #17 of 77
7/8/04 at 4:32pm
We're just stating the facts while Aikeo is intent on boosting his post count.
Ate 12 slices of bacon today and counting.
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post #18 of 77
7/8/04 at 4:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tourney2112
Yes, at the moment. But if you're buying and looking to a 4 year future with the laptop, then the athlon64 is the best solution.
I dont know about that Tourney, we are comparing a 128mb M11 and a 64mb M10 as well. There is a pretty substantial difference in those 2 GPU's.

Lets not even think 4 years down the line, because we all know any laptop right now is going to be nothing more than a glorified paperweight.

Lets think about today, Farcry, and tommorow's HL2 and Doom3.

I would really honestly think the P-M with a 128mb M11 is going to outperform a A64 M10.

Even when 64bit starts becoming the norm, i would still rather have the better GPU. But thats just me.

They are both fine machines.
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post #19 of 77
7/8/04 at 4:38pm
that's actually a pretty good point...in 4 years time it won't matter if you have a 64 bit processor in your computer because it will still suck
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post #20 of 77
7/8/04 at 4:40pm
it would be a good point if the Athlon64 system didn't have a 128mb M11 as well. Both systems have the same gpu just different processors. However, if the gpu was a m10 on the 64, then I'd completely agree with you guys. Sady, it isn't.
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