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conspiracy theory - Page 4

post #61 of 91
7/14/04 at 3:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sucka
Notebook technology tends to last a lot longer than PC technology. You often see real old NB's becoming e-mail checkers/word processers, ect. I would be tottaly happy with being able to run a 64bit based OS 2 years from now while sitting in bed checking E-mail/web browsing. I think that could maybe (and i mean maybe) apply to PC technology, but as far as Notebooks, i plan on keeping this for several years and doing all my initial testing on 64bit beta's on this machine. Time will tell how the new software will perform, obviously in theory it must be better, otherwise they wouldn't be designing it now would they
you think your 64-bit os you going to help you check your email? i dont think so. 64-bit os when it becomes available is only going to help with things that heavily use the processor, like music and video editing, and to benefit you need software designed for 64-bit. and in 2 years new 32-bit lappies are going to outperform your 2 year old 64-bit notebook in every aspect anyway.

and for those who've been arguing, intel basically is the market, i doubt anyones going to want to switch to 64-bit os before intel is widely distrubting 64-bit processors, because software designers dont like to design software for the odd 7% or so of pc owners that have 64-bit ready computers.
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post #62 of 91
7/14/04 at 4:46pm
Success of 64bit chip will come down to how easy it is to program for. If the complexity of coding for the chip increases a small amount, then it should take off in a while. However, if it is very hard to code for (like BlueTooth was at the start) it will take much longer.

As for the XP-64 stuff? I'll hold off judgement until I write my own OS. That happens in the spring semester of this coming school year. Whoo boy, what a way to graduate...
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post #63 of 91
7/14/04 at 6:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sad Mr.Woo
you think your 64-bit os you going to help you check your email? i dont think so. 64-bit os when it becomes available is only going to help with things that heavily use the processor, like music and video editing, and to benefit you need software designed for 64-bit. and in 2 years new 32-bit lappies are going to outperform your 2 year old 64-bit notebook in every aspect anyway.
I can't wait to give 64 bit solitaire a try!
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post #64 of 91
7/14/04 at 6:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattS
Success of 64bit chip will come down to how easy it is to program for. If the complexity of coding for the chip increases a small amount, then it should take off in a while. However, if it is very hard to code for (like BlueTooth was at the start) it will take much longer.

As for the XP-64 stuff? I'll hold off judgement until I write my own OS. That happens in the spring semester of this coming school year. Whoo boy, what a way to graduate...
Have you taken an OS class yet? When I took mine, I saw just how much life was left in 32 bit. 64 bit is more than we'll need for a good while yet.
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post #65 of 91
7/14/04 at 11:17pm
Thread Starter 
life left in 32?
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post #66 of 91
7/14/04 at 11:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_d_y_a
life left in 32?
what the hell do you mean life left in 32? right now 32 is the only thing with life in it.
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post #67 of 91
7/14/04 at 11:58pm
now i wouldn't go that far. there is some life in 64, just not much yet. and i still think its going to come out earlier than expected. even it doesn't, the sp2 will utilize some the athlons security features. and to me security is important.
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post #68 of 91
7/15/04 at 12:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_d_y_a
life left in 32?
Yes. When you see how the OS actually manages all the hardware and especially memory management, you see how overkill 64 bit is for the next while.

For example, we "move over" one bit every 1-2 years. Right now, the typical system has 512MB memory in it standard. That's 29 bit addressing used. When 1GB is standard, 30 will be used, etc. When we hit the 4GB limit, we'll need 64 bits. Using 4GB of RAM on a 32 bit processor would not permit a swap file. You'd need a 64 bit processor for that.

Even at that, though, Intel's x86-64 only uses 36 bit addressing and AMD uses 40 bit. IIRC, Itanium uses 48 bit memory addressing.

So, when there won't be an actual NEED for 64 bit for at least 3 years for typical Joe Consumer (being optimistic). Power users, servers, etc, will need it sooner. So to pave the way so the infrastructure's laid down when it is needed, AMD and Intel are putting out 64 bit systems.

Nice, yes. Needed now? Only for ground work.

Super
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post #69 of 91
7/15/04 at 12:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayaman2
now i wouldn't go that far. there is some life in 64, just not much yet. and i still think its going to come out earlier than expected. even it doesn't, the sp2 will utilize some the athlons security features. and to me security is important.
IE the NX bit.

Definitely nice, but using firewall and antivirus software along with regular patching goes along way to mitigating security risks.

Could also add not using Outlook. That alone almost makes the NX bit need imperative.
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post #70 of 91
7/15/04 at 12:44am
even though only took os 8 months ago... forgot more than 1/2 of it
i do remember the prof mentioning it is possible to address more than 4 gbs of ram on a 32bit system... can't remember the details of it... will look it up when i have time

however, i don't think the amount of ram addressable by the 64bit cpu is it's strength... it's mainly that it has more registers and more precision... that is calculations using long int and double will be much faster
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post #71 of 91
7/15/04 at 3:45am
Thread Starter 
hmmm...
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post #72 of 91
7/15/04 at 9:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superguy
Have you taken an OS class yet? When I took mine, I saw just how much life was left in 32 bit. 64 bit is more than we'll need for a good while yet.
Not yet. Going into my senior year in August. The OS Class is in the spring semester. That, plus an assembly course where we get to make our own boot disks. Yay for 60 hour projects.

Quote:
however, i don't think the amount of ram addressable by the 64bit cpu is it's strength... it's mainly that it has more registers and more precision... that is calculations using long int and double will be much faster
I agree and disagree. RAM Addressing won't be the strength of the 64bit cpu, it will be the calculation speed & precision.

However, this is dependant on what the programming environment is like. Just because there are more registers to do stuff doesn't mean things are easier, but the road travels in that direction.

After doing labs with a Motorola microcontroller that used only 1 register in its assembly language, my lab partener and I gained a new appreciation for Intel's assembly language. But the important differentiator is the semantics of the language. I hope the new assembly languages are similar to the old ones as that will speed the transition (as well as production of 64bit apps and thus adaptation of 64bit chips).

Of course, I have yet to experiance some of these things so its still a good amount of speculation on my part
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post #73 of 91
7/15/04 at 11:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jw95275
i do remember the prof mentioning it is possible to address more than 4 gbs of ram on a 32bit system... can't remember the details of it... will look it up when i have time
possible, but slows down as the OS needs to perform some extra work to section off the higher memory...
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post #74 of 91
7/15/04 at 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superguy
For example, we "move over" one bit every 1-2 years. Right now, the typical system has 512MB memory in it standard. That's 29 bit addressing used. When 1GB is standard, 30 will be used, etc. When we hit the 4GB limit, we'll need 64 bits. Using 4GB of RAM on a 32 bit processor would not permit a swap file. You'd need a 64 bit processor for that.
True... its called Moore's law. Hardware requirements double every 18 months.
However, there is a problem with this outlook. In Windows and Linux, the OS can address 4GB TOTAL Ram, BUT, any 1 process can only address 2GB. This means that unless you are running more than 1 memory heavy process your actual limit is only 2GB... which we are coming up on fast!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superguy
Even at that, though, Intel's x86-64 only uses 36 bit addressing and AMD uses 40 bit. IIRC, Itanium uses 48 bit memory addressing.

So, when there won't be an actual NEED for 64 bit for at least 3 years for typical Joe Consumer (being optimistic). Power users, servers, etc, will need it sooner. So to pave the way so the infrastructure's laid down when it is needed, AMD and Intel are putting out 64 bit systems.

Nice, yes. Needed now? Only for ground work.

Super
512mb = JOE... so in 3 years he'll need 2GB, which means 64bit time (by the process requirement).
1024 = ME (power user) so in 1.5 years I'll need 2GB, which menas 64bit
2GB = Server world, and large business apps, and uber-power multitasking... they want 64bit ASAP...

So the market is there, and with the availability of WinXP64 we will see it take off in the next year...
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post #75 of 91
7/15/04 at 11:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattS
Yay for 60 hour projects.
I'm embarking on my year long graduation project now... loooooootssss of work.
60 hours is lots... tho


Quote:
Originally Posted by MattS
I agree and disagree. RAM Addressing won't be the strength of the 64bit cpu, it will be the calculation speed & precision.
For right now... I agree, science apps with love the extra precision... but long term, RAM is the driving factor. In 5 years we will all be using over 4GB of RAM, and 32bit OSes with high-mem emulation will be too slow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattS
However, this is dependant on what the programming environment is like. Just because there are more registers to do stuff doesn't mean things are easier, but the road travels in that direction.

After doing labs with a Motorola microcontroller that used only 1 register in its assembly language, my lab partener and I gained a new appreciation for Intel's assembly language. But the important differentiator is the semantics of the language. I hope the new assembly languages are similar to the old ones as that will speed the transition (as well as production of 64bit apps and thus adaptation of 64bit chips).
Nobody codes in assembly these days... the compiler does it for you

More importantly the compiler can do a better job of optimizing the assembly code than most humans can (you'll notice that if you ever write a compiler... cool stuff!). Furthermore, with todays instruction sets assembly can get real complicated real fast. I did ASM coding for P-II 2 years ago, and I never used any instructions that were newer than 286

Finally, the environment won't be any more difficult to use. Well designed end-user apps will only need a re-compile to be 64bit-ified. The harder stuff to convert is drivers and OS. Even those are not too terrible. When all is done, the programming environment will be identical.

I think the most work to be done in the move to 64bit is in the world of compiler design... and GCC64 is already out
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post #76 of 91
7/15/04 at 12:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by agentsim
I'm embarking on my year long graduation project now... loooooootssss of work.
60 hours is lots... tho
We also do a senior design project, all year long. Right now, maybe a web enabled toaster oven. Go to a website, dl a recipe to your TO. THen, when you get home, *Bam!*, toasty food waiting for ya.


Quote:
Originally Posted by agentsim
Nobody codes in assembly these days... the compiler does it for you

More importantly the compiler can do a better job of optimizing the assembly code than most humans can (you'll notice that if you ever write a compiler... cool stuff!). Furthermore, with todays instruction sets assembly can get real complicated real fast. I did ASM coding for P-II 2 years ago, and I never used any instructions that were newer than 286

Finally, the environment won't be any more difficult to use. Well designed end-user apps will only need a re-compile to be 64bit-ified. The harder stuff to convert is drivers and OS. Even those are not too terrible. When all is done, the programming environment will be identical.

I think the most work to be done in the move to 64bit is in the world of compiler design... and GCC64 is already out
That's encouraging stuff to hear. But wouldn't the compiler by-pass Assembly and go straight to machine code? Or does it have to to Assembly first?

gcc64? Oh baby, I loved gcc
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post #77 of 91
7/15/04 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattS
We also do a senior design project, all year long. Right now, maybe a web enabled toaster oven. Go to a website, dl a recipe to your TO. THen, when you get home, *Bam!*, toasty food waiting for ya.
Oh man... I *hate* webapps. My senior design project is a massively multiplayer online real-time strategy game


Quote:
Originally Posted by MattS
But wouldn't the compiler by-pass Assembly and go straight to machine code? Or does it have to to Assembly first?
Well, yes it would... but assembly is a 1-1 translation of machine code... so they are basically the same thing.
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post #78 of 91
7/15/04 at 4:32pm
We can do just about anything we want for our senior design. Only reason for the web enabled toaster is because (according to my friend) there are directions. One of my friends who graduated made a set of wireless speakers. Dunno how they turned out, but it was a pretty cool idea.
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post #79 of 91
7/15/04 at 6:27pm
a cool idea some people at my school had:

wireless home security system... using a small Linux server and webcams, they could detect movement, and could rig sensors on doors. The system also took photos of the house every 10 minutes which could be seen over the net.
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post #80 of 91
7/15/04 at 6:28pm
That would be great at a wild party.
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