New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Dell 8200 vs. Sager 5660

post #1 of 41
12/8/02 at 9:13am
Thread Starter 
Yeah, I know .. another dead horse beaten to death. Surprised PETA hasn't started protesting us.

Anyway .. I think I have narrowed it down between the two. But again being a laptop newbie and all that, and despite the fact that some here might be a just a *little* bit biased ( ), I still respect and trust your opinions on this forum a great deal.

Ok .. I know I can get more power w/ the Sagers for the $$. That seems to be the case no matter how many frilly offers Dell seems to throw at us from time to time. So that is a tradeoff no matter how I configure both systems -- and each one (Dell vs. Sager) has their share of tradeoffs. So I am basically asking the group here which tradeoffs would probably work best for me.

I am looking for a desktop replacement that I can occasionally take to work, on the road occasionally (but am not a business traveller sort of person), and to a LAN party or two. I probably don't need the absolute power NOW, but I suppose it would be nice to have the horsepower to run a game or two in the future.

The Sager's plusses that I see are the aformentioned processor power/bang for buck, 4 USB 2.0 ports, a GREAT forum here to ask questions and get info (as opposed to the Dell's which seem to be rather short and even rude at times), a nicely constructed case, lifetime tech support.

The Dell's plusses are it's "award winning service" (yeah, I know ..it's really just words until you actually use them -- but my parents swear by them, so..), warranty is somewhat limited but can be increased thru more $$, does have a serial port (for my ancient but still useable digital camera), video card can be replaced/upgraded, type III PCMCIA card available, operating system/drivers/some other software already installed for me, internal WiFI available.

I will probably be using WiFI both here and on the road, so that will be a definite plus. Though I guess you can get an external card for the Sager as well. How big of an advantage is USB 2.0? I know it is MUCH faster but is it really that big a deal when you do have Firewire available for both systems?

Covered the faster processor issue, but even so it seems that the Dell still holds it's own in a lot of tests. But have heard the Dell's case (and hinges in particular) are fairly cheaply made. And ports are exposed. But like I said it does have some extra versatility over the Sagers. I just wonder how much of a difference that will truly make.

And that "piece of mind" knowing Dell has been around and has been a pretty decent company for a lot of years..so....

That's essentially my dilemma...comments? Suggestions? All are MORE than welcome! Thanks!

Joe C.
Reply
Reply
post #2 of 41
12/8/02 at 9:42am
What I would like to know is why does the 8200 get the best reviews?!!
Is it a case of who advertizes the most in magazines get the best results in tests?
Is there a conspiracy or are these tests motivated by the amount of advertising budgets ?

Funnily in many magzines across the globe the 8200 is considered the best buy? .........Why???...

Reply
Reply
post #3 of 41
12/8/02 at 12:46pm
either sager doesn't wan't to participate, is not officially invited to participate, or probably some combination of the two. my guess is they just let the damn thing speak for itself. plus Habib mentioned the likelihood that sager wants to keep its operating costs down - and maybe they don't want to be another one of those companies. Alienware M51 has been reviewed a bit, and its nearly identical. PCT's review with pictures is very hepful, especially in understanding how the hardware is laid out and how the 8886 stacks up against the 5660.
as far as dell...never owned one and the commercials suck. but the Dell dude did wonders for residential sales. in the 4 years he was spokesman dell's home computer sales DOUBLED. Im sure its not all due to him, but he can take most of the credit. hope his movie career is as prosporous.
Reply
Reply
post #4 of 41
12/8/02 at 1:26pm
From what you said above I'd say you should get a Sager, the only bad thing is that you cant upgrade their video cards

anyway

Dude, your getting a Sager...

ok just wanted to say that
Reply
Reply
post #5 of 41
12/8/02 at 2:37pm
I will just go through and respond to each point of what you said. No wrong in beating a dead horse to death, it's money that you'd be spending and you should have the most complete knowledge you can before spending it. The people here are generally unbiased, actually. Any bias you see will be as a result of having experienced the ownership of one of these computers. PCTorque is the most honest and unbiased person I've ever met, even towards his company and sales, so that does say something. My own position is that I will give facts and what results from those facts.

The fact is, you can get more in a sager for the same money as a dell because 1) they use the desktop processor which is much cheaper and much faster than the mobile counterpart and 2) they do not advertise much or give promo units to places for review, etc and they let the product do the talking (hence these forums). There truly is a tradeoff no matter how the systems are configured. The inspiron 8200 has 1 smart bay that you can configure throughout the lifetime of the system... the 5660 has two. That means if a new drive (the superdrive, for example) comes out in the future, you can easily put it in the computer in place of whichever drive you want. Both models have dual battery support, but the 8200 lasts much longer on battery power because of its mobile processor. This longevity varies depending on use, of course. Do you require longevity of that nature? I would say maximum of half an hour difference from what I've heard. The 5660 is bigger than the dell, but it is still a laptop. Both can be taken places occasionally. If they both have the same graphics card, M9, then they will perform similarly in most games, which is why the numbers aren't all that different. THe processor of the sager, though, is faster and has a faster system bus. The system bus is not fully taken advantage of in either system, though, because the RAM only reaches 266 mhz (and not 400 on the dell or 533 on the sager). You will have the horsepower to run games on either system. The 5660 has USB2 ports, which have a theoretical bandwidth of 480 (around there) mbps. USB1 comes nowhere near that. It's down below 40, I can't remember the exact number. Both systems have firewire. Both systems have a 15 inch screen, and I've heard some say the sager is nicer and some say the dell is nicer if it has ultrasharp. The 5660 is lacking in one pcmcia port while the dell is not. But, expandability on the 5660 is not all that limited because of the other fast ports. The forums here will help you with anything. The forums at dell are just huge, lol, and most of the time you will not get much detail in the answers. Most say that the dell build quality is nowhere near the sager's, which is good to hear. You can read a lot about problems with dell's award-winning service, but there are always going to be such problems. Most institutions hesitate to buy with dell because they take their time on tech support in those cases (I know UD did not buy dell because of that very fact and experience). The video card on the dell can be upgraded, but with the slower mobile processor it is doubtful that by the time it needs to be upgraded you will want to. The sagers do not come with extra software installed because generally that software is useless and fills your system registry with things that slow the computer down (which is why most people opt for a clean install of windows even if the computer came with it installed). You can find instructions for driver installation and help with it all here if you require it. I know of many here who have wifi installed on their systems, so they can comment on that if they choose to (and most will if they see this thread, lol, that's the beauty of it). Dell actually hasn't been around for too much longer than sager and definitely not for much longer than clevo (the original manufacturer of the computers supplied to sager, prostar, and alienware for their area51-m which is the same as the 5660). I hope this helped! Post if you have any questions! Good luck with your decision!
Reply
Reply
post #6 of 41
12/8/02 at 5:05pm
If you would like to see a review between the Inspiron8200 and the sager 5660 check out the dec issue of pcgamer (the one with age of mythology) on front. They review the alienware 51m which is about as close to getting a sager review in a magazine as you'll ever get Anyways, the alienware (2.8P4, M9) scored about 7100 on 3dmark which is basically identical. They compared this with the Inspiron8200 with a similar configuration(2.2mobile P4, M9...etc) and for the most part the scored pretty evenly in most games however there were a couple games that the alienware beat the 8200 by a significant margin. One of them was JKII and I forgot the other one. I don't recall what resolution it was but I think it beat it by about 10-20%
Reply
Reply
post #7 of 41
12/8/02 at 5:27pm
Some game engines use the processor to a greater degree than others and I imagine those showed a greater difference in the comparisons. Apart from games, consider applications that require a high degree of processing power (video encoding, for example).
Reply
Reply
post #8 of 41
12/8/02 at 5:33pm
Quote:
Originally posted by beebster83
Some game engines use the processor to a greater degree than others and I imagine those showed a greater difference in the comparisons. Apart from games, consider applications that require a high degree of processing power (video encoding, for example).
I suspected as much.

The only area where dell beat out the alienware was in battery life...which was to be expected. I gotta say again that the chamelon paint on the alienware is really sweet looking. I still wouldn't pay what their charging for it but it does look nice.
Reply
Reply
post #9 of 41
12/8/02 at 5:57pm
Lol, even without that paint job (if you just get the standard), you get an absolutely horrendous price compared to PCTorque and for sagers in general. It is nice looking though :-) But I'd rather have a plain cover with a spectacular interior, lol.
Reply
Reply
post #10 of 41
12/8/02 at 10:24pm
Not selling DELL here since it's pretty much for certain I'll be picking up a Sager 5600 next Jan/Feb; but with regards to the price differential between a DELL 8200 and the Sager, it's really a lot smaller than what some of us would think.

E.g. configuring on http://www.dell.com.sg,

P4-2.2 GHz M, 15 inch UXGA option
XP Home
256 MB RAM
DVDROM/CDRW drive
40 GB 5400 rpm HD
= S$3963 - S$600 (mail in rebate) = S$3363

Add another S$200 when buying from Crucial 256 DDR RAM. Total cost would be S$3563, or about US$2036, which is about the same for a Sager 5660, 2.4 GHz set up with similar options.


Rob
Reply
Reply
post #11 of 41
12/9/02 at 12:10am
You can get one with 2.8 Ghz and the rest the same for about the same price... I call that a big difference, lol. :-) Considering it's dual smart bay, too. Also, those mail in rebates are sparatic, yes of course there are times when that price applies, but with the sagers it's consistent and any specials that come up are in addition to that. Nothing wrong with Dells, just not a sager IMO :-) Glad to hear you chose the sager... Let us know what you think and good luck!!
Reply
Reply
post #12 of 41
12/9/02 at 5:56pm
Well that sweet chameleon paint job that alienware offers no longer looks so sweet...$457 Yikes...did it go up? I thought it was like $210
Reply
Reply
post #13 of 41
12/9/02 at 6:21pm
lol, no, the other paint jobs are like 200 and the chameleon is just insanely more than that. :-) Insanely more than what is already insanely more.
Reply
Reply
post #14 of 41
12/9/02 at 6:25pm
Quote:
Originally posted by beebster83
lol, no, the other paint jobs are like 200 and the chameleon is just insanely more than that. :-) Insanely more than what is already insanely more.
check it again.

+61 Space Black
+61 majestic Blue
...
+457 Chameleon

hmm...looks like they just dropped the prices on their regular paint jobs and kept the chameleon paint the same.
Reply
Reply
post #15 of 41
12/9/02 at 6:27pm
Well then... I guess they did. Last time I checked on their site it was add 200 or so for any paint job and then add a bunch more for the chameleon... Glad to see they are a LITTLE better with that. But they are still way too expensive.
Reply
Reply
post #16 of 41
12/10/02 at 8:08pm
There are a couple of points about the Dell that you should consider that have not really been beaten to death here yet.

One, the Dell will allow a 2nd hard drive in its SmartBay, while the Sager will not. Depending on what you're doing, etc., that could be VERY handy. The alternative if you have the 5660 is an external USB 2.0 or Firewire enclosure. That might be fine for you, but it will never be as fast OR as convenient as a fast drive installed internally.

Two, the Dell supports a Mini-PCI WiFi (802.11b) card. If you are going to use wireless frequently, this might be a big deal. I'm still on the fence between the two (I8200 vs. NP5660), myself, and I know I'll be using wireless most of the time. Having an internal card that I never have to mess with has a lot of appeal versus having a card with an antenna sticking out the side of my laptop, and having to remove it every time I want to stick the laptop in my briefcase, then stick it back in when I take the laptop out again. Not to mention my concern that I'll just set the laptop down wrong and break the antenna off. And Dell's internal WiFi card is a Hermes-based card, which is the same as used in Orinoco Gold cards, which are very good (and can be used to run NetStumbler, a very handy wireless security analysis tool for network admins, which no other chipset can).

Third, the Dell has 2 PCMCIA slots and the Sager only one. So, in the Dell you could use a Type III PC Card (which you can't in the Sager), or you could use one slot for, for example, a USB 2.0 card, and still have the other slot available for anything that you might also use in the Sager. Personally, I don't have any USB 2.0 devices. So, I think I would be pretty satisfied with the Dell just knowing that I could always add USB 2.0 via a PCMCIA slot fairly cheaply and conveniently, if I ever needed it.

Fourth, the combo of no Mini-PCI and only one PCMCIA slot in the Sager is especially hard to swallow. I KNOW I'm going to use a wireless NCI a lot. With the Sager, I would never be able to do that and use some other PCMCIA card that does something else at the same time. One example of when I might want to: I take the CompactFlash card out of my digital camera and put it in the PC Card adapter and want to stick it in my laptop to copy stuff from it on to my LAN. My cameria is only USB 1.1 and my CF card is a 340MB Microdrive, so it's MUCH faster to do it this way. With the Dell, I could do that and still have a PC Card slot available for something else. With the Sager, I'd have to first put the CF in and copy the stuff to the hard drive, then I'd have to remove the CF and put in the wireless NIC and then move the stuff from the local HD to my desired network location.

Fifth, there is no PowerXtender-type cable for the Sager. There is for the Dell. I checked on this about a month ago, so this could have changed. What is a PowerXtender cable? It's the cable that would let you plug your laptop into the power port on an airplane seat. This same cable would have sleeve-like adapter that would let you plug it into a car cigarette lighter. Not having this, the Sager would require you to use an AC inverter in your car (a clunky kludge, in my book) and be SOL on an airplane. Using an inverter sucks for the extra clutter it introduces into your car, and because of, in my opinion, the general lameness of taking DC power and converting it to AC in the inverter then converting it back into DC in the laptop's power brick, when you never needed AC in the first place.

Sixth, if you monitor Dell for a couple of weeks and order when they have one of their sales going on (almost every week), and order an Inspiron 8200 with the minimum memory possible, then order memory separately from Crucial, the price generally comes out right at the same (for a P4-M 1.7 GHz) as for a similarly configured 5660 with a P4 2.4 GHz. Last time I did it, the price was within $20 or so and the Dell came with a 2nd battery included (normally $99 extra). The difference in CPU speed is roughly 25%, on cycles alone, but the real-world overall system throughput for normal day-to-day apps is going to be *much* closer than a 25% difference. I'd be surprised if the difference for normal Office-type apps was more than 10%.

So, if raw CPU speed is less important to you than some of these other things (and don't forget the Dell allows upgrading of the video board), the Dell might be a better choice for YOU (I'm still on the fence).

- Stu
Reply
Reply
post #17 of 41
12/10/02 at 9:01pm
All excellent points... Some have been considered and others haven't. I'll try and respond to them based on what I know.

One: Yes, the second hard drive option is nice. I'm glad it is in the 8886, and it could be very handy in some cases. But, an enclosure is not slower than an internal drive if the external drive is a faster one. The throughput is limited by the firewire or USB2 cable, but it is not lowered to even near less than an internal lappy drive which are usually slower than the desktop counterparts by a significant margin (although not significant enough to make them near obsolete). It would be more convenient to have an internal drive, which is why I want the 8886. The option does exist for an external drive and future drivers for laptops will get larger and you can replace the internal one with a 60 gig if necessary.

Two: The mini-PCI problem has been discussed on the forum before... It is a downfall. I agree that if you are one that is looking to use that extensively, it should be a major point of consideration. However, 802.11b in institutions is on the decline as 802.11a becomes cheaper and more available. It has double the bandwidth if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure if those are offered in mini-PCI form, but in some cases if may be better to wait until those become more widely available (note, lol, in SOME cases, yours obviously would not be one of them). Also, the mini-PCI version of wifi draws less power than the PCMCIA counterpart, so it would be a good option for battery-conscious people.

Third: This has been beaten to death but is very relevant... Another reason why I want the 8886. 1 PCMCIA slot is kinda icky, but keep in mind that the 5660 is built for raw power. Most gamers are not spending money on expandability because they replace their computers too frequently. Thus, keep that in mind if you are not a gamer and you intend to use the expandability of a laptop you buy. The thing about the sagers is that many of the common PCMCIA card offers are already part of the laptop (USB2, firewire, etc). The specialized users might consider this before purchase as well. As you stated, the dell does not have USB2, which severly limits those avenues of expansion unless you get a PCMCIA card for it (which uses more battery power and costs more money and takes up one of those card slots).

Fourth: The combo of the two is bad for those users who are emphasizing the use of those two specific components. I know I keep saying this, but the alternative for users that are looking for a more expandable machine is the 8886 (but, of course, you pay for the extra features that some people might not want, not to mention the extra size).

Fifth: There is a power cable that is coming out in a month or so according to PCTorque that allows for use without an ac/dc inverter. But, to clarify, regardless of the setup (powerxtender or ac/dc inverter), the dc power is converted to a type of ac in order to change its voltage and power output to the correct one. The powerxtender is simply eliminating the need for two cables and the extra clutter.

Sixth: Dell does have lots of sales. But, they are taking the price down from one that was already high. Sager deals, like those from PCTorque, take the price down from an already low price. Also, if you buy a sager with the minimum memory possible and buy it from crucial, you will still get it for cheaper than the inspiron even at a sale time. Not to mention the fact that the difference between 1.7 Ghz and 2.4 is more than 40%... Yes, the average system performance increase will not be that high, but it will show a difference with everything that involves the processor to a great extent (lol, pretty much everything, gaming, encoding, decoding, multitasking, etc). Not to mention the difference in system bus and the ability to upgrade the processor at a later date in the sager. Office type apps can be done on a 486 system, lol, I wouldn't compare performance based on that... But that's just me.

The fact that you can upgrade the video card in the dell is the one thing that truly tugs at me... I wish the sagers allowed for that. But, it is also true that by the time your video card is not going to play modern games to a playable extent, you're going to want a new system (if you are a gamer).

Based on what's been said, those who require the things the sager does not have should definitely look at a dell, they're great systems. But for me, I'm a sager fan. After I look over the 8886 in great detail, I'll also be in a better position to comment on their functionality and real-world use.

Thanks!
Reply
Reply
post #18 of 41
12/11/02 at 6:55am
Thread Starter 
Wow...both you and Habib have given me a LOT of things to think about. Also bring up more questions as well.

Gosh this is still bugging me -- am going back and forth between the two companies -- and also bringing up the possibility of the 8886, which I earlier dismissed because of not needing the MP3 player, TV Tuner and messing w/ all the extra drivers associated w/ them, etc.

Going thru some of the points made by both of you .. Ok, I think I will be using WiFi on the road when I travel for sporting events/going to other people's houses w/ WiFi LAN setups/even places here in town are getting WiFi capability. So I think that will be something I will definitely get some use out of. All things being equal, I think I would prefer the MiniPCI solution. I also believe I read somewhere that the internal WiFi setup was better in that the antenna installed was longer and better for reception than the external card antennas would be. Anyway -- question: Are those MiniPCI cards in the Dell easily upgradeable should I say, go to 80211.a when they become widely available?

One of the things that irritated me about the Dell was it's lack of USB 2.0. But Stuart said a card could easily be put there to take advantage of that (should I, say, add a USB 2.0 drive of some sort). Question: If I do this, would it be as fast as a regular USB 2.0 port on a Sager machine? Plus on the Sager you get FOUR of those things. Could come in handy in the future.

The Inspiron 8200 does have the capability of the 2nd drive. Would be most convienient should I want to add another drive. But then again, with external drives speeding up and USB 2.0/Firewire, I don't really expect speed to be huge issue, would it?

PowerXender cable? Eh .. would be nice I suppose at times. But generally I don't think I need it. One thing I WOULD like is capability to use that powerpad from Electrovaya (I think that is the company). I hear it isn't quite ready for Sager's yet -- does anyone know if it works w/ the Dell 8200?

Originally I thought the ability to swap video cards would be a big thing for me. But given the fact that it is a decently complicated thing to do, that even if other notebook video cards become available in the near future, it doesn't mean they'll be compatible w/ the series 8200 laptops. I was reading some on the Dell boards about this and some say the swap is like successful about 50% of the time anyway. So I don't think that is a big issue for me right now.

I believe Stu is right about the processor comparo. I've seen Alienware's 2.4 machine compared to the Dell's 2.0 mobile P4 chipped machine and the results are pretty close in most cases. So while Sager offers some great processor choices, I am not sure in the "real world" that the extra HP is really making a huge difference. At least those are my initial impressions from what I've seen and read so far.

Add to it now is that I am considering the 8886 as well. Originally I dismissed it for not needing some of the other stuff that comes with it. But .. it does have some of the things the 5660 is missing against the Dell -- as well as still giving me 4 USB 2.0 slots which the Dell doesn't. Though the Dell probably has a better screen (as opposed to the 8886's SXGA). I believe I said earlier that weight doesn't matter since it's a desktop replacement I was looking for. But the 8886 weighs in at something like TWELVE POUNDS. Weight isn't critical and all, but I do have my limits.

But it having the serial port (for my ancient digital camera) as well as having a large screen (15.7 inches) and having multiple card slots and having the possibility of another internal drive bring it into the mix for me. By the way with the TV tuner, does that make it easier to input images from my VCR/analog camcorder than it would from say a Dazzle or some other analog to digital converter? That might be a selling point for me if it were easier to import those images from my camcorder using that built in TV Tuner than it would be to get something else for my 5660 or the Dell 8200.

Other stuff: I can probably get a nice 3 year mail in warranty with the Dell. I checked w/ the Sager and they use a 3rd party (Phillips?) for their warranty servicing. Again my parents swear by Dell and their quick and reliable no hassle servicing. What about Phillips? Has anyone dealt w/ them before?

Intangibles: The security of going with a semi-known quantity as Dell for me does give me some piece of mind. But .. these forums here for the Sager really do help as well. Plus, given all the great things said about Adam and PCTorque make me feel pretty good about purchasing from them too. Add to it he is hosting these forums and allowing me to post questions on them means a great deal to me -- that I do feel a certainly loyalty towards him and PCTorque to go w/ them should all things be equal. Because I really do appreciate the opportunity to ask these questions to all the fine participants of this forum.

Oh darnitall. Decisions, decisions. Still will keep messing around with configurations from all 3 laptops and see what I come up with. Keep the opinions coming!

Joe C.
Reply
Reply
post #19 of 41
12/11/02 at 12:31pm
the 2nd harddrive option and wifi are one of my biggest pros for the 8200. Why it still lacks USB 2.0 still baffles me. I believe there next upgrade (8500) will fix that issue.

The upgradeable video card is also a very nice option (when it works) however I think times are changing and more companies will begin offering similar options. Just recently ECS (another taiwanese based co. like clevo) anounced their latest model desknote pc which will have an upgradeable GPU.
http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/Ar...ges=PR&seq=206
They seem to be heading into complete desktop replacement (no battery, fully upgradeable unit). However, I see that trend spilling over to other makers and it wouldn't surprise me if clevo's next major revision of either the 5660 or 8886 offers some type of GPU upgrade
Reply
Reply
post #20 of 41
12/11/02 at 2:07pm

8886 mp3 player

If the mp3 player and other extra features bother you talk to PCTorque, I know you can get the 8886 without the mp3 player and save $40 or you can get it just without the sd memory card and save $20 sure its not much but then you don't have to worry about it. I'm sure if you asked its probably possible to get it without the tvtuner ect.

Thats the greatest thing about Sager I think. They will literally customize the ENTIRE machine for you.

I just wish the color cases were available Maybe after the new year that will happen and then hopefully PCTorque will be able to offer some sort of recolorization for us ppl that have already purchased our machines. I was tempted to wait till after the new year, but after putting off the purchase for a month I just couldn't wait any longer. I wish friday was already here (thats when my 8886v should arrive)
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Sager & Clevo Notebooks