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post #1 of 11
Thread Starter 

Just downloaded Linux Mandrake 9.1 and thought I may try and learn how to use it since it looked soo cool with the great looking transparencies with the command lines in one window and some more in another window. Installed it but how can I learn when I don't know where to begin. SO my question is, what would be the point of my trying to learn how to use Linux , and where did you guys learn, by a book? or the web. If you know any site that gives you as much information as possible to start learning. I will really appreciate that. I am still in High school and asking if it would be a waste of time learning this other OS. Still don't know what I want to do in the computer world but trying to figure out now. So please, can someone help me. Thank you.

____________________________

Proverbs 16:24
e2g
post #2 of 11
Hi,

I learned UNIX on the job 18 years ago and spent the next 15 as a full time software developer and system administrator. Two very key programs to learn how to use are man and info. Man is the old style of documentation and was designed with generating printed pages. Info is based on the Emacs editor and it supports a non-linear organization. You will have to learn an alternate jargon set because the UNIX world and Microsoft have largely been developed without consideration of each other.

Beyond that, it really depends on what you want out of the system. UNIX/Linux provides an alternative means to use a computer. I don't use UNIX much these days. I have out of date versions of Red Hat and FreeBSD installed under VMWare that I occasionally use to test something or run a sniffer on the VMWare virtual network. I also have an account on a couple of Solaris machines I may have logged into two or three times this year. Ten years ago, I would have said "I'll give up UNIX when they pry it from my cold dead fingers"

I still have a very UNIX oriented mind set. One of the key things I want on my Windows boxes is the UNIX environment. I have been using Cygwin for a few years to give me that environment. Before that I used the Mortice Kern Tools. This was on a floppy only based laptop running DOS 2.11. I just had to have vi, awk, sed, grep, uniq, ...

Good luck

B
post #3 of 11
well...

i don't mean to nitpick, but that transparency you're seeing is not real alpha blended transparency, like you would see in more graphically advanced guis like aqua. it's a bit of a hack job; the window will take a snapshot of the desktop area behind it and make it its background. you can see it refresh choppily when you drag the window. x (the graphics server) doesn't have true alpha tranparency yet. just thought i'd clarify...

but anyway, back onto the real topic.

there are plenty of reasons to get into linux. however, there are also plenty of reasons _not_ to get into it. it depends on how you use your computer, and what aspect of the computer you're interested in. i'm not trying to chase you away or anything, but i can give better reasons if you can tell me a little about how you use your comp, your computing background, what you like about computers, etc...

how did i learn? well... i've never bought a linux book in my life. someone bought one for me at one time, but i don't know where it is, what it was about, what the title was, or even what it looks like. (a testament to how much time i actually spent on it: zero)

but anyway, here's a little story for you, about how i got into linux:

i think it was about... i don't know... maybe sixth grade. i had just lost all my important stuff in a fatal windows crash. (FAT has no journaling, which sucked for me...) after cursing my head off and breaking my windows cd... and the subsequent shock at the realization that i could no longer reinstall my windows, i decided it was time for a change. it was not worth the time to get a hold of another cd, and windows was boring. everything in the os was far too easy, and i wanted a challenge. a _real_ challenge, not just fixing those stupid dll errors my neighbors always ended up with. one of my geekier friends at the time (whom i have now far surpassed in linux geekiness - i showed him how to a text-only linux install for gentoo a couple months ago) suggested linux. i had heard of it, but did not really know anything other than the fact that it was, at the core, a command line. that was attractive to me, considering the fact that i used a computer since the age of four and basically grew up in front of it, and i had ended up using DOS for more of my life than i had windows. command line was definitely appealing. so, with no prior knowledge at all, i downloaded and burned the most user friendly distro at the time (corel linux, i think - i believe they pioneered graphical linux installs) and installed it.

so after getting in and looking at that pretty little gui called x (kde, more specifically - really old kde) for a while, and poking around with the web browser and whatnot, i found out how to log out of x and found myself with a command line.

this was nice. the 'dir' command from dos worked (although 'ls,' i found out later, was clearly better), as well as the 'cd' command. 'move' and 'copy' however, did not. i poked around, knowing absolutely nothing. naturally, i didn't get very far.

and then came another problem: i did not know how to get back to x. oops.

i tried all the commands i could think of, from 'x' (which doesn't exist) to 'gui' (which doesn't exist either) to 'get me the hell back to that stupid desktop already!' (which i wish was a real command) and then, after discovering a whole new world when i realized that linux was case-sensitive while dos was not, a slew of other variations.

it took me several days of messing around (no internet, mind you - i wouldn't have even been able to _comprehend_ the usage of 'ifconfig' and 'route' at that point) before i finally found out that 'startx' was the right command. and demonstrating myself as the complete antithesis of common sense, i did not think to restart the computer - and smacked myself about it later, when i finally learned the difference between runlevels 3 and 5.

but after getting back into x, and deciding a couple days later that i had not nearly learned enough, i shut down the x server and went back to the command line. and i forced myself, just by sitting in front of a computer with a tiny little bash prompt, to learn and figure it all out - the hard way.

that's how i learned. if that sounds masochistic to you, then you're probably right. but it also means that it's probably not the method for you.

so after that incredibly verbose story of my beginnings in linux (hey, you asked...), i'll recommend another option (and one i wish i had the luxury of during my first bumbling linux experience): the net. the net is vast, and i sound like Major Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell. but it really is - everything on linux is out there. _everything_. from massive document repositories such as the linux documentation project (http://tldp.org) to linux user communities such as this forum and the gentoo forums (and even the kernel mailing list, for that matter), it is easy to find any info you want, and get just about any question answered. i remember - after finally getting on my feet with linux, i headed over to linux.org (i didn't know any linux sites, and made a reasonable guess at an address) and read every single HOWTO document they had available.

... yes, i'm a geek.

but the point is that you can get everything you want to know about linux off of the net - for free. (disregarding the price of internet access) you'd have to hand over a mess of cash for a book with pretty much the same info.

actually, this little trip down memory lane reminded me of where i put that stupid book. i went and got it - it's called "Special Edition Using Linux," copyright 1997, and is 734 pages long. (it comes with redhat 4.1 with a whopping 2.0.18 kernel, slackware 96, and caldera openlinux. caldera doesn't even exist anymore - it's a part of SCO, that company we all hate at the moment) it cost 60 dollars... and it looks like i know everything in it. i could have used those 60 dollars to get a new game! the book makes a nice lap desk for my 8887, though...

so save yourself those 60 dollars and go check out the linux resources on the net. it's all free (as in beer), just like linux.

oh yeah. i'm in high school too. (well ok, i finally got out last month. but i'm not in college yet, so i still feel like a high schooler)

personally, i don't find it a waste at all. after talking around at the university's summer orientation, it seems like i've got a massive head start over a lot of the other comp sci people in my engineering and applied science department. ("What the heck is BSD?" gimme a break) not only has building a linux system from scratch given me serious insight into how an os works, but reading about and messing with optimization flags taught me a lot about compiler and computer architecture, reading kernel code has shown me many programming methods from different people and has taught me some C, and i'm sure there's plenty of other stuff i can't think of. so i tortured myself in the beginning, but now... i wouldn't trade it for the world. i love this stuff.

... it seems i've written this post with an extremely linear and rambling train of thought. it must be because it's 6:30 AM and i'm tired from staying up all night. but sleep is for the weak; i'll catch up on it when i'm dead.
post #4 of 11
Cant agree more - RTFM (read the f**king manual) The linux docs project has more info than you can poke a stick at.

Having said that Linux is not for everyone. If you like just being able to stick in a program and have it run - stay with windows.

If however you dont mind installing the 10 support libs/programs that the 1 program you are trying to install requires then linux may be for you.

If you like having access to the source code and thus being able to add functionality and fix bugs yourself - linux is for you. If you like never ever ever having to see the BSoD again - linux is for you.

If you like having access to a very very active support community (though some tend to be a bit elitist) linux is for you.

There are more reasons to go with linux but the last I will mention is cost - ITS FREE!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh yeah and its X doesnt support real transparency in its native form however there are framebuffer X servers which do. HOWEVER - I run Eterms under Windowmaker and the transparency is not choppy in the slightest even when moving windows
post #5 of 11
well, of course, the choppiness of the transparency hack is proportional to a lot of things - the background image size, colors, and quality, whether the window does any shading or tinting of the transparency, and the power of the computer. even the program itself - for example, bashish(Eterm) is choppy while multi-gnome-terminal is not (for me). dunno why. i also have a gkrellm plugin that changes my background every five minutes - that's a lot more overhead, too.

the problem with xdirectfb is that it is a heavy modification of x. while it does add cool framebuffer features to x like the modification of a window's transparency with the mouse scroll wheel, it also causes problems for other packages. there are quite a few programs that depend on x libs or headers for their x support (actually, all x programs), and many of them break and don't compile for xdirectfb - they need to be patched or hand edited to work, which can be a pain for large programs. not only that, but it SUCKS on vesafb. vesa is slow to begin with, and running an x server on it makes it crawl. i couldn't use it because it was so slow for me. you need to have an accelerated framebuffer for your card. and it's a shame because most of those are still in infancy - radeonfb doesn't work for me at all.

as to the elitist linux communities:

stay away from debian lists and boards. a lot of debian users have a reputation of being real ***holes to newbies. i've seen it happen.

well... i don't think this board is very elitist...

the gentoo forums have the best community i've seen in a long time. however, gentoo is not a newbie distro, so it could be over your head. and the developers are jerks on occasion.

i don't know many others because i don't really go anywhere else...

stay away from the mplayer lists. the developers' response is always RTFM, without giving any help. you won't get much constructive info unless you're an l33th4x0rm4st3r and can talk on the level of the developers.

supposedly mandrake's community is not bad. never been there, though.

... those are all the ones i can think of at the moment.
post #6 of 11
hi e2g!

i would suggest to get one of those dummies books to start. even though you can get all the info on the net, i think that having a book as a reference is essential in linux. after you become a little familiar with the names, the best linux book is called 'running linux' by Oreilly. it will give you a lot of insights. to be honest, you will need books! if you learn linux, you'll become a power user. But that learning is a little bit challenging, specially if you are not computer/programming inclined.

well, enough said.

good luck
post #7 of 11
I would also suggest a good beginners site and forum. This place is great for the specific hardware in our laptops, but for learning Linux, you may want to ask questions and search forums at a place geared more towards that. Check out JustLinux. They used to be called LinuxNewbies.org and they have some great docs.
post #8 of 11
Thread Starter 
First and Foremost, THANK YOU ALL for your time and knowledge of informing me of such things. ok. again. Thank you! for your replies........

Quote:
Originally posted by arpia
hi e2g!

i would suggest to get one of those dummies books to start. even though you can get all the info on the net, i think that having a book as a reference is essential in linux. after you become a little familiar with the names, the best linux book is called 'running linux' by Oreilly. it will give you a lot of insights. to be honest, you will need books! if you learn linux, you'll become a power user. But that learning is a little bit challenging, specially if you are not computer/programming inclined.

well, enough said.

good luck
Thank you arpia. One thing though, you said I need some computer/programming knowledge. I am very familiar with the computer but programming, I am getting started with. I just got a book, "Microsoft Virtual Basic Programming for the absolute beginner" by Michael Vine and haven't start reading it but heard visual basic is the easiest language to learn and thought that would be a good jumpstart in the programming language world. Well is it? I am tryging to see if this is my thing. I can't tell you what I like to do with the computer. It would seem I would be interesting once I learn but learning looks very difficult and boring but I have to try my best. anyways. thats all I wanted to say to you arpia.

dirtboy--> thank you for your suggestion and a link.

Thank you bcingubuck for some history (of your life) but got confused when you started to say some terms that I am not familiar with but thank you anyways.

Thank you Bratag. One question though. What do you mean when you say "If you like just being able to stick in a program and have it run - stay with windows." and also this line. " If however you dont mind installing the 10 support libs/programs that the 1 program you are trying to install requires then linux may be for you. "

Last but not least, thank you xiphux. I can see you love sharing and helping others. Thank you very much.

I never saw anyone in a forum reply and thanking everyone who replied. Anyways, I start to read this site:

http://iew3.technion.ac.il/CC/Comp_n...x_learning.htm

Look forward to your replies again. Oh yeah, and for the high school part, I am going in grade 11 and I am going to the USA to finish school. I currently live in the Bahamas.......e2g
post #9 of 11
Basically in Linux many programs require either libs (a collection of functions in a single file - sorta like dlls) or indeed other programs to run. So many times you will end up having to install half a dozen things just to get the original program you were trying to install t work.

Ok onto what language is easiest - I guess VB is - HOWEVER I would strongly suggest you look at JAVA instead. Though not my favourite language, it will give a good start in programming sytntax and OO coding as well as the fact that JAVA code can be run on both windows and UNIX based OS'es. In addition there are some great development tools in Linux for java (netbeans is my personal choice).

Just my 2c worth


Quote:
Originally posted by e2g
First and Foremost, THANK YOU ALL for your time and knowledge of informing me of such things. ok. again. Thank you! for your replies........



Thank you arpia. One thing though, you said I need some computer/programming knowledge. I am very familiar with the computer but programming, I am getting started with. I just got a book, "Microsoft Virtual Basic Programming for the absolute beginner" by Michael Vine and haven't start reading it but heard visual basic is the easiest language to learn and thought that would be a good jumpstart in the programming language world. Well is it? I am tryging to see if this is my thing. I can't tell you what I like to do with the computer. It would seem I would be interesting once I learn but learning looks very difficult and boring but I have to try my best. anyways. thats all I wanted to say to you arpia.

dirtboy--> thank you for your suggestion and a link.

Thank you bcingubuck for some history (of your life) but got confused when you started to say some terms that I am not familiar with but thank you anyways.

Thank you Bratag. One question though. What do you mean when you say "If you like just being able to stick in a program and have it run - stay with windows." and also this line. " If however you dont mind installing the 10 support libs/programs that the 1 program you are trying to install requires then linux may be for you. "

Last but not least, thank you xiphux. I can see you love sharing and helping others. Thank you very much.

I never saw anyone in a forum reply and thanking everyone who replied. Anyways, I start to read this site:

http://iew3.technion.ac.il/CC/Comp_n...x_learning.htm

Look forward to your replies again. Oh yeah, and for the high school part, I am going in grade 11 and I am going to the USA to finish school. I currently live in the Bahamas.......e2g
post #10 of 11
well, both platforms require libs. but because windows is a full, closed package os, it comes with all of the dll's you need. linux, however, being a collection of many individual parts of an os, does not always have everything necessary. if you get a complete, well packaged distro like redhat, suse, mandrake, etc, then you probably will have to install very few libs, if any.

but just like you would have to install the Mesa3D GL libraries in linux to play games, you would have to install the DirectX package in windows to play games. (generally) it's not really any different.

the other reason is because of the open-source nature of linux. anyone with any decent programming skills could create their own linux libraries for free without having to go through the trouble of buying the sdk's and stuff they would need for windows - so you see new libs popping up left and right. and then programs implement whichever ones the author chooses. so planeshift depends on crystal space, ScITE depends on Scintilla, BT++ depends on wxPython, Azureus depends on SWT, and plenty of other programs that depend on obscure libraries. while it kind of makes it more complicated for end users to deal with, it makes it a lot easier and more flexible for the programmers and developers to do things the way _they_ want.

plus, any decent package management system will handle all that stuff for you.

i second that java suggestion. while i personally don't like it and never wanted or bothered to learn it, it is a good starting point. i know that it's usually one of the first (if not _the_ first) programming languages taught in computer science curricula.

and it's possibly followed by c or c++. at least, that's the way it's going to work in my comp sci schedule.
post #11 of 11
Really? In my curriculum they went the opposite direction: C++ first, then Java. Kinda eased you in to OO programming.

Learning Linux is incredibly useful for learning the ins and outs of the internet. Most of the servers out there run some flavor of *nix. The best class I took in college was a Systems Programming class. Offered only once before the instructor retired. It dealt mostly with learning how to get around the shell and scripting in Perl, Ruby, Python, and shell. It was great fun.
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