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I dont want to a annoy gaming dothan boys but please tell me why ?? - Page 2

post #21 of 74
12/5/04 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nark
Besides the performance difference (there is literly none between the amd 64, p4 and dothan, the bottleneck is the mobility 9700).
Well, then I suggest you take a long and hard look at this review:
http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_cont...id=gmso&page=1
Quote:
While mobile platforms are typically extremely hard to compare, we did the best we could under the circumstances. All of the notebooks are using top of the line processors, and for testing, and are using the exact same hard drives. The graphics chips are all based on ATI’s Mobility 9700 GPU. Using ATiTool, we linked the clock speeds to the same stock 400/400 GPU/DDR clocks, and disabled ATI’s PowerPlay
Quote:
Originally Posted by nark
p-m:
advantages:
doesnt get as hot as some of the other processors.
According to the following thread it gets hotter during load than most other mobile processors used today (only beat by Prescott it seems):
http://notebookforums.com/showthread.php?t=38764

Besides, Centrino is not synonymous with low power consumption since there are several laptops using that package that only have average battery life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nark
disadvantages:
The Centrino chipset is pretty outdated with really bad WLAN performance and slow memory access. Also, Pentium M's poor floating point performance (compared to P4 & A64) dosen't make it very well suited for scientific apps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nark
AMD 64
advantages:
Not to forget NX-bit support (more secure) and faster memory access (better multitasking).

Quote:
Originally Posted by nark
disadvantages:
some what hot.
Perhaps Athlon 64 DTR (still far from as hot as P4), but definately not Mobile Athlon 64.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nark
p4
advantages:
kills in multitasking
Well, HyperThreading might improve multitasking but it will also take a performance hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nark
disadvantages:
And poor battery life.

Apart from these nitpicks, I have to say that I agree with you for the most part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nark
each processor has its advantages and disadvantages, thats the reason people pick one processor over another.
That's not my impression, it's actually all about branding and marketing to quote Overclocker's Ed Strolingo:
http://www.overclockers.com/articles1112/
Quote:
The first problem is that the average human being has been brainwashed over the years to think Intel, so the average person buying a computer who neither thinks much nor wants to think much about computers has a built-in Intel bias.

This is the 800-pound gorilla in the whole discussion. Many buy Intel for the same reason they buy Sony televisions; the brand name has been branded into their brains, and buying that requires no additional effort on the part of the buyer.

Those willing to put more effort into the buying process can scream all they like about it, just like Toshiba fans can give all kinds of reasons for buying their product, but these folks aren't around to listen. They're not watching your channel.

This is not going to change anytime soon, and probably never will. This is not like Coke/Pepsi; AMD is more like Dr. Pepper/Seven Up. Even if AMD could match Intel dollar-for-dollar in advertising (which they can't; they don't have the money), it would take years and years to wear away that ingrown Intel Inside People's Heads.
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post #22 of 74
12/5/04 at 2:16pm
Snorre I'm still waiting for you to tell me how much that lappy cost you
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post #23 of 74
12/5/04 at 2:30pm
Performance wise, when it comes to gaming, the Dothan is as good or better than any other mobile chip out there, and it is even on par with the high-end desktop CPUs.

So gaming performance isn't an issue, but perhaps price is.

It all comes down to paying a premium for a thinner, lighter notebook, that has the same performance. Personally I tempered the cost by getting a 1.7 instead of a 2.0. The performance drop is worth it compared to the price drop, which was something like half the price.

Snorre: You're wrong. I've bought nothing but AMD chips since the K6-2, but when it comes to Mobile, at the current point in time, Intel has AMD beat. That could change with AMD's upcomming centrino-like platform, but at the current point in time, Intel has the edge. And for me, quality came before my brand loyalty to AMD. Don't get me wrong, if I were buying a desktop today it'd be an A64.

EDIT: According to that review you posted Snorre, the performance differential between the Dothan 2.0 and A64 3700+ is almost non-existant; it's barely outside the margin of error.
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post #24 of 74
12/5/04 at 2:37pm
That's stupid. People wouldn't buy dothans if they were weaker than AMDs in all respects, just because they have been indoctrinated by Intel-ads. AMDs might be faster, but there are enough people out there who pay a hell lot of money for notebooks that are slower than a 3 year old desktop (!) pc, just because it weights less than 2lb... Portability IS a criteria and currently there are no AMD based notebooks with less than 4 or 5 lb and a batterylife of more than 5 hours.


On the first page someone wondered why people get married with their notebooks like this... It's really troublesome, even though notebooks are extremely expensive, they are never perfect. Too small, too large, too heavy, too hot, too loud or too slow. It doesn't matter which one you buy or how much money you spend, there is always something bad about every notebook.

In the end most people begin to live with these little flaws, they ignore it, talk highly about the amazing benefits of their notebook/chipset/etc and they tend to despise all alternatives as useless/overpriced/etc trash even though they're equally good or for a completely different kind of customers.

But this Dothan vs. AMD discussion is harmless compared to how discussions about Windows vs. OS-X vs. Linux can become...
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post #25 of 74
12/5/04 at 2:53pm
Something I don't understand. If P-M is supposed to run cooler, why do people report 70C as a completely normal temperature under stress? That's NOT cool, and anytime I get over 62C myself I know something's not right. Do their laptops have crappy cooling, do they all live in 30C climates...?
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post #26 of 74
12/5/04 at 2:55pm
I think people mean they run cooler under normal use, which doesn't really include gaming or anything. Stuff you would do while on the go, per say.
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post #27 of 74
12/5/04 at 3:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guspaz
EDIT: According to that review you posted Snorre, the performance differential between the Dothan 2.0 and A64 3700+ is almost non-existant; it's barely outside the margin of error.
Actually, I analyzed this GamePC review and a similar Anandtech review, and by normalizing these results for Athlon64=100% I got:

Results from GamePC for Pentum4-M 1.8GHz, Pentium M 1.8GHz and Athlon64 1.8GHz:
http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_cont...id=gmso&page=1

NormalizedNormalizedNormalized
P4 1.8GHzPM 1.8GHz A64 1.8GHz
SiSoft Sandra 2004 SP1 - CPU Arithmetic Benchmark62 %90 %100 %
SiSoft Sandra 2004 SP1 - CPU Multimedia Benchmark67 %100 %100 %
SiSoft Sandra 2004 SP1 - Memory Bandwidth Benchmark87 %72 %100 %
Adobe Photoshop CS Filter Test97 %111 %100 %
Alias|Wavefront Maya 5.01 - Zoo Render Benchmark65 %107 %100 %
LAME 3.93 MP3 Encoding Test71 %103 %100 %
Windows Media Encoder 9 WMV Encoding Test84 %123 %100 %
Sciencemark 2.0 Beta - Molecular Dynamics54 %92 %100 %
Sciencemark 2.0 Beta - Primordia54 %86 %100 %
Average:71.1 %98.4 %100 %

Results from Anandtech for Pentium M 2.0GHz and Athlon64 2.0GHz:
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...spx?i=2129&p=1

NormalizedNormalized
PM 2.0GHzA64 2.0GHz
Business Winstone 2004103 %100 %
Multimedia Content Creation Winstone 200499 %100 %
SYSMark 2004 Internet Content Creation107 %100 %
SYSMark 2004 Office Productivity114 %100 %
SYSMark 2004110 %100 %
DivX encoding95 %100 %
XviD encoding95 %100 %
Unreal Tournament 2004107 %100 %
Halo97 %100 %
Final Fantasy XI96 %100 %
Wolfenstein Enemy Territory Radar99 %100 %
Warcraft III The Frozen Throne99 %100 %
Visual Studio compile the Quake 3 source100 %100 %
3Dsmax R5 Singlepipe91 %100 %
Lightwave 7.5 Radiosity Reflective81 %100 %
Average:99.5 %100 %

In summary: Comparing these CPUs at the same frequencies shows that Athlon 64 and Pentium M perform very similarly, perhaps with a slight lead in favor of Athlon 64 on average for all the results.
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post #28 of 74
12/5/04 at 3:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanna
Something I don't understand. If P-M is supposed to run cooler, why do people report 70C as a completely normal temperature under stress? That's NOT cool, and anytime I get over 62C myself I know something's not right. Do their laptops have crappy cooling, do they all live in 30C climates...?
Actually, Pentium M is designed to handle 100C while P4 & A64 can only handle max 75-85C. That means the Pentium M can operate at higher temperature and requiring less cooling (also less power consumption).
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post #29 of 74
12/5/04 at 3:20pm
Yeah see, that doesn't mean they run cool, though. Relatively, yes. Not absolutely.
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post #30 of 74
12/5/04 at 4:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by muzauk
Very True and i apologise

Well today is another day and im sober, I think i wasn't really looking at the bigger picture when i posted this i can see the use now behind the centrino package, and yes it is an excellent package if your requirement are a light weight, the option of lenghty battery times and now it seems the majority of high end ones come with a decent GPU.

Nark very well put i think you have just sum'd this topic up thanks
Hey, don't worry about it, everyone has a bad night once in a while.

Take care, and enjoy the sunny day, at least what I hope is a sunny day in your local also.
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post #31 of 74
12/5/04 at 4:22pm
How can anyone consider a Pentium M hot. It is beyond obvious that when used with similiar cooling systems the P-M runs much cooler than any Athlon or P4. Sure you can design a system in which it will eventually get quite hot, but that's simply a design choice to use very poor cooling.

As for performance, it depends on the usage for all of these cpu's. They all game fine though without getting into the top end $500+ vanity cpu's, and the big thing to consider for gaming notebook is the video card as already mentioned. Now most P-M notebooks will have a slow 3d card, but decent one's are availible. And even looking at the P4 and A64 desktop replacements it's hard to find a reasonable price on anything with an ATI 9800 or NV 6800. And that's before even considering the battery life, size, weight, etc.

The dothan definately isn't the be all end all of cpu's, but it has real advantages in the power consumption and heat output relative to it's effectiveness for a large number of applications.
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post #32 of 74
12/5/04 at 4:51pm
Because 70C *is* hot, no matter how you put it. Got some comparisons on how warm it gets compared to the others with he same cooling?
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post #33 of 74
12/5/04 at 5:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by snorre
In summary: Comparing these CPUs at the same frequencies shows that Athlon 64 and Pentium M perform very similarly, perhaps with a slight lead in favor of Athlon 64 on average for all the results.
Don't forget that they are very similar, and that the Pentium-M has it's slow outdated 400 MHz FSB!!!
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post #34 of 74
12/5/04 at 7:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guspaz
Performance wise, when it comes to gaming, the Dothan is as good or better than any other mobile chip out there, and it is even on par with the high-end desktop CPUs.
The 2.0 Dothan is on par with A64 3200/3400 roughly, but falls short of the mobile A64 3700 by some margin, if you look at a large number of reviews and see the consensus.

On the other hand, it is not coming close to touching P4EE 3.6 GHz, and even less the FX-55. It depends on what you mean by "ON PAR". If it means within 15%, sure, that's likely, and that would be plenty peppy for any casual gamer. But for a hard-core enthusiast, PM will not cut it against the big guys up there.
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post #35 of 74
12/5/04 at 8:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelX30
Don't forget that they are very similar, and that the Pentium-M has it's slow outdated 400 MHz FSB
Yes, and it's also thanks to this slow bus interface that its capable of operating with such low power consumption. A faster bus interface would most definately reduce the battery life noticeably.
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post #36 of 74
12/5/04 at 9:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HardBall
The 2.0 Dothan is on par with A64 3200/3400 roughly, but falls short of the mobile A64 3700 by some margin, if you look at a large number of reviews and see the consensus.
No, according to comparable reviews the Pentium M 755 (2.0GHz) perform on average very similarly to the Athlon 64 3000+ (2.0GHz) while the Pentium M 745 (1.8GHz) perform on average very similarly to the Athlon 64 2800+ (1.8GHz). See my post on the previous page for more details.
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post #37 of 74
12/6/04 at 1:00am
400mhz FSB isn't slow or outdated, because the Centrino platform isn't slow or outdated.

If the Pentium M with it's 400mhz FSB can keep up with the A64 and it's 2000mhz FSB (FSB is same as clockspeed in A64), then obviously whatever reason they had to use it was justified.

Snorre: Isn't it a tad unfair comparing a mobile proc (PM) with a desktop proc (A64)? Shouldn't you be comparing it with the A64 Mobility? I mean, in Anandtech's tests, the Pentium M had a Radeon 9600 Mobility, and the A64 had a desktop 9600 underclocked to the same speed. It's a stretch of a comparison.
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post #38 of 74
12/6/04 at 1:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by snorre
No, according to comparable reviews the Pentium M 755 (2.0GHz) perform on average very similarly to the Athlon 64 3000+ (2.0GHz) while the Pentium M 745 (1.8GHz) perform on average very similarly to the Athlon 64 2800+ (1.8GHz). See my post on the previous page for more details.

Are you finally admitting that a Dothan with it's incredibly slow 400 MHz FSB is owning your precious little AMD?
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post #39 of 74
12/6/04 at 1:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guspaz
400mhz FSB isn't slow or outdated, because the Centrino platform isn't slow or outdated.

If the Pentium M with it's 400mhz FSB can keep up with the A64 and it's 2000mhz FSB (FSB is same as clockspeed in A64), then obviously whatever reason they had to use it was justified.
A64 Mobile chipsets currently only have 800MHz HT one way and 1600 duplex, and won't get 2000 Duplex until the next upgrade, likely along with dual channel memory.

And their FSB (which is a misnomer anyway) is not the same as clockspeed. Hypertransport is an ASYNCHRONOUS bus, and is always independent of the CPU or the Memory clock.
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post #40 of 74
12/6/04 at 1:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelX30
Don't forget that they are very similar, and that the Pentium-M has it's slow outdated 400 MHz FSB!!!
Give me a 6lb laptop with a Radeon 9700Pro, widescreen display, and 3+hours of battery life, and you can keep your 533Mhz bus.
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