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9860 Fans,Temps,Chirps What We Know

post #1 of 207
12/23/04 at 9:42pm
Thread Starter 
Seeing various threads everywhere lets consolidate info here.
This pertains to 9860 CPU Fan/Temperature operation and issues with them.

I would like to point out that the thermal handling of the 9860 (when working properly) is far superior to any other laptop I have utilized previously and should scale well with future hardware.

Tip: To check fans I used (2) flat top TV trays with laptop supported on either side, (1) mirror, (1) can of compressed air (careful to use short burst upright only to start fan), and (1) flash light.

First My Findings using MobileMeter:
60c CPU Fans turn on - as in BOTH yes both cpu fans receive power
70c CPU Fans on max - Both fans are set to max rpm
70+c CPU Fans at maximum and CPU begins to throttle fsb/clock down
45c CPU Fans turn off - Fan power is switched off from both entirely

There is only one ACPI Thermal zone found and this is the CPU, so we have no data on fan rpm or other temp sensor data should they exist elsewhere(sucks, but oh well).

Observed operation with Everquest 2 running:
1 CPU Fan at max(other one just wiggles): 60c-65c - Not right (too close to thermal design limits set by intel)
2 CPU Fans(forced #2 to start spinning with compressed air): 50c-55c - Right on with some headroom and low audible volume from fans

Observed operation just office/development/browsing:
1 CPU Fan(other one just wiggles and chirps)thottles up and down NEVER shutting off unless other fan gets unstuck and starts running: 55c-60c - Not right
2 CPU Fans(forced #2 to start spinning with compressed air) Fans cool system to 45c quickly and both fans shut off totally until 60c: 45c-60c -Runs great, but fan should startup without help.

So from my perspective a properly running 9860 should operate under light load with little to no fan activity in the 45c-60c range, and will quickly cool off from 60c to 45c until the fans shut off. Under heavy load the two fans will kick on at 60c and cool the system to between 50c-55c with moderate fan speed maintaining this range.

Improper operation appears to idle/operate under light load between 55c-60c with one fan working all the time throttling low and mid and the other fan chirping as it oscillates expressing line noise audibly as it tries to start up.

Word from our sponser:
"Ok got an answer for you:

By design one fan is off the other one runs, when the temp get high enough the second fan kicks in. So here is the real kick in the pants, the squealing is being caused by the temp getting high enough for the second fan to kick in then droping to quickly for the fan to get to full speed. Why is it doing this you might ask... I am pointing the finger at AS5, the AS5 in these machines is causeing the cooling to not act as intended. This is not going to cause any long term damage.. it will only have an annoying squeel from time to time. Sager and Clevo are both working on a permenant fix for this issue, but there is no ETA yet.
__________________
Luke McBride
PCTorque.com "

As far as my machine is concerned I emailed websupport@sagernotebook.com as directed by the sticky in this forum. Sager responded promptly with RMA instructions so I will be shipping mine 36 miles from my home to theirs tomorrow. More info as I find it out...

Otherwise this machine rocks, there is simply nothing better out there for the money and I have received perfect and prompt treatment at every step since I ordered. Mine only had one stuck red pixel 2inches down and 1inch to the left of the webcam, so this was a nearly perfect machine. Lets hope this gets fixed asap!
----
Update 12/26/2004: My machine is in transit via UPS, so I thought I would remove any doubts about what Intel in their words "allow for the optimal operation and long-term reliability of Intel processor-based systems,".
Source: http://developer.intel.com/design/pe...s/30235103.pdf

Processor Thermal Specifications
CPU#|Core Freq(GHz)|Thermal Design Power (W)|Min TC(°C)|Max TC (°C)
--------------------------
520|2.80|084w|5°C|65.0°C
530|3.06|084w|5°C|65.0°C
540|3.20|084w|5°C|65.0°C
550|3.40|084w|5°C|65.0°C - PRB = 0
550|3.40|115w|5°C|72.8°C - PRB = 1
560|3.60|115w|5°C|72.8°C
570|3.80|115w|5°C|72.8°C

I have a 560 at 3.6GHz and my machine with the small fan spinning and large fan wiggling was way too close to intel's max thermal spec.
I really don't feel too comfortable having it anywhere near its Maximum thermal rating under load in ambient winter temps, imagine summer time usage! I will say that when both CPU fans were operational the temps under load left quite a lot of overhead from the max, so both fans running rock.
The intel chart also confirms why the CPU starts throttling around 70°C as this is the maximum temp for my 3.6GHz.
So I advise to use the chart above and read up at the provided intel link to know your recommended operating temps. Also remember that the reading we're all seeing in MobileMeter is that of the CPU diode.
Know the facts, the truth is out there...
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post #2 of 207
12/24/04 at 12:13am
Wow, this is a great post, everything that was described here is exactly how my 9860 is acting, it's good to know I'm not the only one that has an "issue" with the fans and cooling. Thanks for the info, keep us posted!!
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post #3 of 207
12/24/04 at 1:09am
If the problem is the AS5 as described, then the solution is simple, reprogram the fan start up temps so this doesn't happen. Either way this really needs to be fixed, its incredibly annoying.

By the way, if you couldn't tell, or if you haven't seen my previous posts, I have the same issue.
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post #4 of 207
12/24/04 at 6:34am
Well, I am glad they admit there is a problem and are working on it. It does seem to be a "simple" fix. Such as have the fan shut off temp a bit lower than the startup temp, IE: turns on at 60 but doesnt turn off until 50. Also, it seems its trying to startup at too low of an rpm which means less power which is probably not quite enough power to start turning. How about making the fan start at med rpm regardless, then throttle back or up as needed.

Oh, and if they dont have a fix yet, how is RMA'ing to them?

John
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post #5 of 207
12/24/04 at 9:44am
Has anyone actually tried using a utility like SpeedFan yet? I don't know if it would even function with a laptop or not, but it would be interesting if you could simply control all of the fan speeds (don't worry, the bios still overrides the settings should temps reach a certain point).
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post #6 of 207
12/24/04 at 10:58am
SpeedFan does not show anything.
What about new BIOS ? Is it fixing it ? I´ll only flash my bios if it makes real sense. And what about the third fan ? I never get under 46c and over 62 - is this okay ?
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post #7 of 207
12/24/04 at 5:08pm
Just some "extra" observations--My fans kick on right around 60 degrees which seems to be the norm. However, my laptop doesn't consistently cool itself back down below 55-50 degrees. What seems to happen is that the unit seems to hover right around 57 degrees. So, being curious, I flipped the laptop over to look at the fans and low and behold one of the intake cooling fans wasn't spinning. Now I'm not so upset about the 60 degree temp or a few degrees close to that, I know that there are themal protections and that 60 degrees really isn't that hot. However, after going through these posts I've seen that the temp of an "idling" 9860 should be right around 40 degrees. Again being curious I decided to put the computer into hibernate for a few seconds and bring it back out. Well, apparently that seemed to bring the other fan on and brought the temp down from 57 to 47 degrees (I had some browsers open and such so I was happy). So, as an interim fix you may try this trick. It's a bit of a pain in the butt and shouldn't be necessary, but it works, sorta. Just my two cents....
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post #8 of 207
12/25/04 at 10:02am
Let´s make some pressure here to let them know, that has to be solved before anything else is solved.

This is a joke.... Temp rises to 60, second fan wiggles.... Temp rises fastly to 70C, then second fan starts and cools down to 60, at 60 the fan speed throttles down and temp rises to 61 again, fan speed rises, cools down to 60, again speed goes down, and so on and so on. Temp is from 60-61.

Okay, I got the solution. Fan must be started with the same power as for higher rpm at 70c as an igniton, then power should be immediatly set down to the normal speed. That is it. Who is responsible for creating new BIOS ????
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post #9 of 207
12/26/04 at 4:19am
Bump...Too important to be lost

John
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post #10 of 207
12/26/04 at 6:13am
You can all rest asure that this issue is being worked on. However it hasn't been given the highest priority, mostly since these notebooks are operating well within the exceptable range for their configurations.
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post #11 of 207
12/27/04 at 8:59am
Hey Krieger, great job. Thanks

Seems as if my fans run all the time. Which is fine I do a lot of heavy computing. But that chirping is bloody annoying. When it gets stuck at that squeaky fan speed I open a huge application to really get things going. Once my fans peak out and then slow down the noise goes away.

Normal temps using mobmeter are 46deg C at idle for the first hour. After that they stay around 58-59deg at idle. I have not seen temps go above 65deg C. Right now fans going while machine sits at 59deg. It will stay there fans spinning all day long.

Sager 9860 - Pentium 4 3.6GHZ - NVIDIA GeForce GO 6800 - 2GB DDR2 533Mhz - 60gb 7200 RPM Sata drive
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post #12 of 207
12/27/04 at 11:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eingang
Let´s make some pressure here to let them know, that has to be solved before anything else is solved.

This is a joke.... Temp rises to 60, second fan wiggles.... Temp rises fastly to 70C, then second fan starts and cools down to 60, at 60 the fan speed throttles down and temp rises to 61 again, fan speed rises, cools down to 60, again speed goes down, and so on and so on. Temp is from 60-61.

Okay, I got the solution. Fan must be started with the same power as for higher rpm at 70c as an igniton, then power should be immediatly set down to the normal speed. That is it. Who is responsible for creating new BIOS ????
I know you hate to part with it but if its not working properly, why not just send it back for repair or replacement. I to have the same problem and this is my second one.. first one worked fine.. idled between 48-50C this idles 60-61C if I prop the back up it idles at 58-59C If I do things minor like post on this message board it shoots to 65C.. My old one only went that high when gaming. High temps effect how the unit runs.. this one doesn't run nearly as well as the last one.. So back it goes again unless Sager has a solution for me.. Still even with these minor concerns with it.. Damn I love this notebook heh It was sooooo worth the 4 month wait for it..
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post #13 of 207
12/27/04 at 1:08pm
I have to agree with Syn.

I got have been running my machine all morning and at the moment it stays around 60deg. When pushed it shoots up to 67deg. It keeps getting hotter . What happened to the AS5. I thought it works better with age. I have had my machine for 20 days and it runs hotter now then when I first got it.
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post #14 of 207
12/27/04 at 1:28pm
Hi y'all,
Why don't you try using a program called I8kfangui to set the temps at which the fans start, stop, transition from high to low and vice versa.

U can download it here
http://www.diefer.de/i8kfan/index.html
, its free and even though it is designed for the DELL Inspiron 8xxx series, I use it on my I5150 and it works just fine.

Check it out, if u weren't aware of it. It might serve as a workable temporary fix, atleast until Sager churns out a bios update for this heat issue everyone seems to be suffering from.

Hope it helps.
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post #15 of 207
12/27/04 at 2:10pm
The problem is, I don't believe the 9860 needs a bios update.. I mean like I said my old one idled at 48-50C..There was nothing wrong with my notebook.. it went in for screen replacement for two stuck/lit pixels..and sager replaced the whole unit. The fans worked when they were suppose to.. im not sure what's causing the heat issues with a handful of them..maybe AS5 wasn't applied correctly?

Don't let this scare you off from buying. Sager has sold thousands of these.. and unlike me that will give you both the good and the bad...most only show up to report the bad..and that is only a small number out of thousands of new owners. Its a great, well built solid notebook.. PCT's been great.. Sager's been great...but complaining here and trying fixes here and there only frustrates you.. contact Sager or your resellers if you feel you have a problem and get it fixed
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post #16 of 207
12/27/04 at 2:51pm
I've been watching mine over the last couple of days and here are my observations:

For the first couple of hours after turning it on, the temps will go through a sawtooth pattern where they will rise from about 46 to 60, the fan kicks in and quickly cools it down to 46. The fan then stops and the cycle begins again. After being on for a couple of hours, however, the fan will spin on low and keep it around 48.

While playing HL2, the fans will work steadily to keep the temps between 62 and 64 with the notebook flat, and between 56 and 60 with the back raised about a half an inch up to allow for extra airflow.

The highest temp that I have seen so far is 64 or 65, while the low end is generally 45 or 46.

That's about all that I can think of for now. I hope this helps as a comparison for other people.
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post #17 of 207
12/27/04 at 4:05pm
@Syn

I am sure that this problem is for all 9860s. Did you look up the greater CPU-Fan when Temp is too high ? If you do, you will see, it wiggles. Push the temperature up to 70C once and you will see, second fan starts and cools down to 47/48C very fast.

Changing the unit is senseless. As long as BIOS and fan model are the same for all units, this bug will be in each and every model. If it doesn´t appear, it´s in some kind of sleeping state, but somewhen it will wake up. I also had no problems the first week, or at least nothing I could see. Also, fan sometimes starts, sometimes not. It´s some kind of *on the edge* -

There are just two solutions. Change the fan or change fan control, which is in BIOS. I am absolutely sure, this will be done soon.

Another thing is, many many people do never ever visit any forum and they simply do not find out, that temeprature is too high or that the fan wiggles. The 9860 just gets a bit more noisy, that´s all. Everything works as usual.

I just can imagine one thing, that there are built in different fan types in the 9860s, manufactured by different factories. In this case, just a certain part has the problem, but I do not think that´s the case. And anyway it can be solved softwarewise.

That´s what I think.
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post #18 of 207
12/27/04 at 4:15pm

The Fix!

Here is the new firmware to have that fan on and throttle normally with the rest of the fans. You will need to unzip this on a clean boot disk and run.
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post #19 of 207
12/27/04 at 4:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eingang
@Syn

I am sure that this problem is for all 9860s. Did you look up the greater CPU-Fan when Temp is too high ? If you do, you will see, it wiggles. Push the temperature up to 70C once and you will see, second fan starts and cools down to 47/48C very fast.

Changing the unit is senseless. As long as BIOS and fan model are the same for all units, this bug will be in each and every model. If it doesn´t appear, it´s in some kind of sleeping state, but somewhen it will wake up. I also had no problems the first week, or at least nothing I could see. Also, fan sometimes starts, sometimes not. It´s some kind of *on the edge* -

There are just two solutions. Change the fan or change fan control, which is in BIOS. I am absolutely sure, this will be done soon.

Another thing is, many many people do never ever visit any forum and they simply do not find out, that temeprature is too high or that the fan wiggles. The 9860 just gets a bit more noisy, that´s all. Everything works as usual.

I just can imagine one thing, that there are built in different fan types in the 9860s, manufactured by different factories. In this case, just a certain part has the problem, but I do not think that´s the case. And anyway it can be solved softwarewise.

That´s what I think.

I really don't think that is the case that there is a problem with all 9860's when everyone isn't having high temps..

Anyone off to make a copy of Sager's filmware.. Thanks Luke
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post #20 of 207
12/27/04 at 4:25pm
Wow, that was fast. Will the fan stay on all the time or does it just affect the power to let it rotate at 60C ???

I mean, hopefully the fan will stop coming down to 45C... Did anyone test it yet ??
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