NotebookForums.com › Forums › Notebook Manufacturers › Dell Forums › Dell Notebooks - General › News story: Foreigners gain thousands of jobs on Dell US staff
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

News story: Foreigners gain thousands of jobs on Dell US staff - Page 3

post #41 of 147
"Fact is that India has a pretty tech savvy country and that Dell can find and train far more competent CSRs and tech support people than they can staff here for the same price"

Yeah, but try understanding them. Make sure they can speak damned english before putting them in tech jobs for US customers. Give me a Kansas boy who scored 10 points less on his ACT anytime!
post #42 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Castanza
Yeah you love cheap stuff...Where do you work to get your money to buy your cheap stuff? From your job!... My point is, when jobs are offshored, people lose jobs or take lower paying jobs, or YOUR job, they don't SPEND like they did before. When they don't spend they don't buy the goods or services that YOUR job supplies. Then YOU lose your job. Then the people you buy from start losing THEIR jobs. Nothing to do with "living in the past" or "steel workers". These jobs are not being replaced here with better paying jobs like the industrial/computer revolution.. These jobs are simply being done elsewhere where it is cheaper. Your "cheap stuff" will soon enough be "expensive stuff" once you've lost your job.
people can get different jobs..people don't have to get lower paying jobs, choices, choices, choices..depends on what is important to you...

if i don't have a job, of course i'm not going to buy cheap stuff that i do not need...but i'm not going to whine about oh, poor me, i don't have a job or i can't buy that hot ferrari i want...wait, i am unemployed already
post #43 of 147
This debate is a classic liberal protectionism vs free market debate. Most economists, who are non political, agree that open markets and less protectionism is better for the US and global economy.

The idea is that free trade goes both ways and we will export as well. Protectionism begets protectionism.

That CSR in India now has a better job than his parents and has improved his lot. That will lead to more demand for goods and services and open up a whole new market for our goods.

And btw why is a Kansas boy more entitled to a chance to better himself than someone living in India. 3rd world countries elevating to the developed world and improving their economies is a good thing, I think.

The world will be better off when the world's population, not just the privileged few in countires in the US are living in productive economies and PRODUCING more technology, goods services etc and elevating our standard of living for all...
post #44 of 147

offshore no more, cont'd

Quote:
Either stay ahead of the curve, or you better start learning Indian - because if you don't, the US will soon be one of the cheap places to find labor and India will be setting up call centers here, so that their computer users can call in and make fun of the way we talk.
This is NOT about staying ahead of the curve...it's about MONEY! Companies offshore because of ONE thing...money. They make more if they buy cheap labor. Quality has nothing to do with it. Don't buy into their B.S.
post #45 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by laffingbilly
people can get different jobs..people don't have to get lower paying jobs, choices, choices, choices..depends on what is important to you...
THAT'S MY POINT!!
It's always "people can get different jobs..people don't have to get lower paying jobs" That's the CEO mentality that starts all this... "There's always some other job to take up the slack so I can still charge Americans American prices".

Listen, any job that can be done behind a desk can be done overseas for cheaper wages. After enough companies offshore, there ARE NO MORE good paying jobs, then everything shifts down. Tax revenues drop, more people go on federal/state assistance needing tax revenue, it all slides downhill. Deflation.

Why can't people see this?? Again, if offshoring was so good for the economy why don't we just offshore everything and we'll all be rich buying cheap products? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T WORK!
post #46 of 147
"The world will be better off when the world's population, not just the privileged few in countires in the US are living in productive economies and PRODUCING more technology, goods services etc and elevating our standard of living for all..."

The world's economy is NOT OUR problem. Backwards middle east is on its own.
post #47 of 147
Can anybody show me data that shows offshoring is a significant portion of the natural economic 'churning' of job loss and creation? I'll save you time, no you can't because it isn't.

http://www.economist.com/displaystor...%2C%0A&login=Y

In case you don't have access to premium content... though the original has nice graphs:

Quote:
Relocating the back office
Dec 11th 2003 | BANGALORE, LONDON, SAN FRANCISCO AND WASHINGTON, DC
From The Economist print edition


Reuters


The shift of service jobs to low-cost countries has only just begun. It promises huge benefits to consumers everywhere

THE debate over “offshoring”, a phenomenon unheard of a few years ago by many of those now loudly proclaiming its economic effects, is in “the percolating phase,” says Brink Lindsey of the Cato Institute, a Washington, DC, think-tank. It could, he adds, be “a potentially potent contributor” to the increasingly protectionist mood in the American capital.

The debate has been brewing since a study by Forrester, a research group, in 2002 claimed that 3.3m white-collar American jobs (500,000 of them in IT) would shift offshore to countries such as India by 2015. There has been standing room only at recent presentations of a report by the McKinsey Global Institute suggesting that this process of “offshoring” benefits both the countries involved in it (see chart 1). It is, says the consultants' research arm, a “win-win” formula.


Others are not so sure. Stephen Roach, the chief economist at Morgan Stanley, talks about a “new and powerful global labour arbitrage” that has led to an accelerating transfer of high-wage jobs to India and elsewhere. He reckons this is adding to the bias towards jobless recoveries in western economies. An anonymous e-mailer claiming to represent a group of Boeing engineers is putting it about that Boeing's offshoring of some design engineering work to a new centre in Moscow is causing lay-offs that are cutting “deeply into Boeing's talent pool”. The e-mail also alleges that this is putting “the safety and quality of Boeing airplanes at jeopardy”.

Although there have been no federal legislative proposals in America against offshoring per se, there has been a tightening up on the granting of visas that allow foreign workers to enter America for training and temporary employment. The annual quota for so-called H-1B visas used by itinerant Indian software programmers fell in October to 65,000 from 195,000 a year ago. The idea is to prevent foreigners from taking Americans' jobs. In fact, the effect may be the reverse. Craig Barrett, the chief executive of Intel, a chipmaker and a big employer of Indian engineers, says that America's main problem is a lack of suitably educated engineering graduates. The impact of fewer visas may thus be to encourage American firms to shift more work to India, where well-qualified computer engineers are plentiful.

But the vast majority of the service jobs that are now going offshore do not require highly qualified engineers. Multinationals may in future do original R&D in low-cost places, but for the moment most of the jobs on the move are the paper-based back-office ones that can be digitalised and telecommunicated anywhere around the world, plus more routine telephone inquiries that are increasingly being bundled together into call centres.

Several American states have moved faster than the federal authorities in trying to halt this “labour arbitrage”. Lawmakers in New Jersey have proposed a bill to stop firms using foreign workers to fulfil state contracts. Public pressure forced the state to bring back a helpline for welfare recipients that had been outsourced to India. For similar reasons, in late November Indiana withdrew from a $15m contract with the American subsidiary of a leading Indian IT outsourcing firm. Governor Joe Kernan said that the contract did not fit with Indiana's “vision” of providing better opportunities to local companies and workers.

On one estimate, America accounts for over 70% of all offshoring business. The second biggest market is in Britain. Big companies there regularly announce that they are moving service jobs abroad, many of them involving the wholesale transfer of call centres. In late October, the HSBC banking group announced that it is taking 4,000 jobs from Britain to India, and earlier this month Aviva (the Norwich Union insurance group) said it is transferring 2,350 jobs, also to India.

As yet, such moves have been less politically contentious than in America. Patricia Hewitt, Britain's minister of trade and industry, responded to those concerned about the job losses by saying it was a “myth” that offshoring would create widespread unemployment. Nevertheless, her department has commissioned an independent study into the competitiveness of Britain's call centres. Representatives of Amicus, a big British finance-sector union, were this week seeking to persuade the European Parliament to set up a more general inquiry into the likely impact of offshoring on Europe's economy.

The offshoring business remains predominantly English-speaking. It is dominated by American and British companies outsourcing their internal operations to third parties in places such as Ireland, Canada and South Africa, but most of all in India. The fact that America and Britain have relatively liberal employment laws has also been influential in the shift of business overseas. If offshoring is, as McKinsey claims, a “win-win” formula for both sides, the process is set to give English-speaking countries a significant competitive advantage.

There are examples to be found elsewhere. A few Japanese companies have shifted operations to north-east China, where Japanese is spoken, and Bain & Co, a consultancy, forecasts that the offshoring market in Russia will grow by 45% by 2006, compared with 57% for India. Eastern Europe too has been making a play for offshoring business based on its relatively low wages and physical proximity to western Europe. In September, DHL, a logistics firm, announced that it will shift its data centre in Britain and parts of its IT operations in Switzerland to a state-of-the-art services centre in Prague that will oversee all the company's European IT operations.


India looks likely to remain the most attractive offshoring destination for some time

But the current political and market uncertainty in Russia could well constrain growth there for some time to come. And all of eastern Europe suffers from an excess of red tape. Earlier this year Lufthansa opened an accounting centre in Krakow in Poland. The German airline says that it is pleased with the quality of its staff. “Our employees are first-rate, but the paperwork is excessive,” says Hedwig Hardtke, the head of the centre. A further threat to eastern Europe's offshoring business lies in the forthcoming entry into the EU of countries like the Czech Republic and Poland. That is sure to narrow wage differentials with the rest of Europe and eradicate much of the rationale for offshoring there.

India looks likely to remain the most attractive offshoring destination for some time. It sees its main competitors as China and Malaysia. But Sanjukta Pal, a consultant with PricewaterhouseCoopers, says that the cost of operations in India is currently 37% lower than in China and 17% lower than in Malaysia. The Philippines is another country that is well equipped to provide competition in the future. It produces almost 300,000 college graduates a year, all of them English-speakers. But they are competing against India's annual crop of around 2m college graduates, 80% of whom speak English.

Much more than low cost

The main advantage of shifting business operations to India and similar low-cost countries comes from a combination of lower wages and the improvement in the quality and price of international telecommunications. A report by HSBC says that the cost of a one-minute telephone call from India to America and Britain has fallen by more than 80% since January 2001. With high-grade jobs, the saving on wages is not as high as with lower-grade ones. NASSCOM, India's National Association of Software and Service Companies, reckons that an IT professional with three to five years' programming experience earns $96,000 in Britain, $75,000 in America and $26,000 in India. At the other end of the scale, low-grade call-centre jobs that in Britain earn a salary of $20,000 earn less than one-tenth of that in India.

But the benefits of offshoring are not confined to lower costs. An article in the latest issue of the McKinsey Quarterly says that many companies that move their back-office functions offshore miss huge opportunities to reap efficiencies beyond those that come from using cheaper labour. “Companies are merely replicating what they do at home, where labour is expensive and capital is relatively cheap, in countries in which the reverse is true.” For one thing, offshoring allows companies to work round-the-clock shifts, ferrying data back and forth from one place to another as the sun sets. For another, it allows them to rethink the way they solve IT problems. American Express, for example, paid local programmers in India $5,000 to write some software that it needed. To have bought a software package that could do the same job would, the company estimates, have cost it several million dollars.


The benefits of offshoring are not confined to lower costs

For the future, offshoring promises to diminish the effects of the demographic crunch in countries where the ratio of the working population to the total is set to fall. HSBC reckons that America would require an extra 8.6m workers to maintain the ratio at its 2000 level for 20 years. Countries that are reluctant to allow in immigrant workers to do their unfilled jobs now have the option of sending some of those jobs out to the workers, before they even think of emigrating.

Despite all the advantages of offshoring, there are also disadvantages. With voice services—such as directory enquiries, for example—local knowledge is often important. So too are accents and culture. In late November, Dell got itself into a tangle when a spokesman in Texas said that the computer-maker was bringing some of its Indian-based customer-inquiry services back to America because “customers weren't satisfied with the level of support they were receiving”. The next day, however, a spokesman for Dell in India denied that the work was returning.

Whatever the truth of the matter, there is no doubt that customers with complex queries requiring local understanding do not respond well to far-off operators repeating parrot-fashion a series of learned responses. Convergys, one of the world's biggest providers of “contact-centre services”, advises companies to shift simple queries offshore while retaining the more complex ones on the same shore as the caller. It calls this process “rightshoring”, and estimates that about 80% of the companies that it is working with in Britain are planning to split their call-centre operations in this way.

Boomerang jobs?

Many companies have not yet taken anything like full advantage of offshoring. Harris Miller, president of the Information Technology Association of America (ITAA), a lobby group, says that offshore locations have so far captured just 3-4% of all American companies' outsourcing. The bulk remains onshore in the hands of big firms such as Accenture, CSC, EDS and IBM. A report by Forrester released at the beginning of this week says that 60% of Fortune 1,000 companies are doing nothing, or are only just beginning to investigate the potential of offshoring (see chart 2). Mr Harris says some big companies have told him that up to 40% of their outsourcing business could end up offshore. That suggests the industry still has a long way to grow.

Technology may accelerate that growth. One thing currently limiting the ability of companies to outsource tasks, says Bain's Simon Heap, is the inflexible architecture of modern business-information systems. It forces firms to perform tasks as a series of discrete steps. So a business wanting to outsource some of those steps (billing, for instance, or customer service), but not others, gets involved in designing horribly complicated flows of information that are all too prone to error. Newer software and hardware promise a future in which, says Mr Heap, firms will be able to outsource smaller and smaller slivers of their business. They will not, as now, have to commit themselves to outsourcing the whole of, say, their customer-service department or nothing.

There are limits though to how far the phenomenon can go. First of all, there are natural limits to the shifting of service jobs overseas. Many of them are in industries like hotels and restaurants, or in public services like education and health, most of which can never be moved abroad. In Britain, some 60% of all service-sector employment falls into this category. Then there are alternative pools of labour to be tapped at home. Citigroup, for instance, has hired about 100 college students in America to do programming for it, and it pays them $17 an hour. The bank reckons that is about half what it would have to pay comparable programmers in India.

Technology too may place some constraints on offshoring. Irving Wladawsky-Berger of IBM argues that some of the tasks currently going to low-cost centres may eventually return because their underlying technologies will evolve in a way that makes economic sense of putting them back in rich countries. At the moment, for instance, customer-service call centres are very labour-intensive. McKinsey says that wages account for 70% of the costs of a call centre in America. That is why they are rapidly shifting to Bangalore, Hyderabad and other Indian cities.

But firms such as AT&T are working on speech-recognition software that might, says Hossein Eslambolchi, AT&T's chief technology officer, soon be good enough to replace a lot of the routine inquiries currently handled in call centres. Indian call-centre employees, in other words, might soon find themselves competing with “offshore” computers in New Jersey, and Indian doctors currently providing remote diagnosis of patients in other countries might find themselves undercut by a supercomputer's analysis of, say, digital mammograms and dental records.

Indian territory
Reuters

Some workers feel trampled underfoot

The business of shifting back-office functions offshore began in earnest in the early 1990s when companies such as American Express, British Airways, General Electric and Swissair set up their own “captive” outsourcing operations in India. However, many of these captives are now finding that their costs are up to 50% higher than those of independent third parties. British Airways' captive business was recently spun off as an independent Indian firm called WNS, handling high-volume, low-value back-office business processes for a dozen western airlines and a raft of other big companies. In what might become a model for other such offshore captives, WNS was bought in 2002 by a private-equity firm, Warburg Pincus, and a group of its own managers.

A bunch of home-grown Indian IT groups have become powerful players in the market for offshore IT services: companies such as Wipro, Tata Consultancy Services and Infosys. They got their big breaks as subcontractors to overloaded western firms during the Y2K software crisis at the turn of the millennium. Now they are beginning to expand beyond core IT maintenance and support work into helping multinationals, for instance, to roll out new software applications.

Younger Indian IT firms are competing in an increasingly crowded market by offering different services. For example, vMoksha builds, operates and then transfers offshore centres to multinational clients, flouting the usual Indian reluctance to hand over ownership. In another sign of the growing sophistication and maturity of the industry, big western outsourcing firms such as Accenture, EDS and IBM are developing their own facilities abroad in order to shift more of their outsourcing business, currently performed in the West, to offshore destinations. But the cost advantages for the latecomers are being continually eroded. Salaries in Bangalore have been rising with the demand for skilled workers, and firms like Wipro and Infosys invest heavily in training and facilities. The Infosys campus in Bangalore's Electronics City, for instance, is the equal of anything in Silicon Valley.

A better deal

The protectionist response to offshoring may force some government work that would otherwise have gone abroad to remain at home, the extra cost to be picked up, of course, by the taxpayer. But government work is only a small part of the market. David Tibble, the boss of WNS, says that it accounts for some 30%; the rest is in the hands of a private sector that is just awakening to the extent to which offshoring can boost its productivity.

Offshoring is not new. Pankaj Ghemawat, a Harvard Business School professor, suggests that the whaling fleets and floating factory ships of the late 18th century “can be said to have originated offshore manufacturing”, a development that accelerated sharply in the 1980s and 1990s. But the beginning of what seems likely to be a mass migration of traditional in-house corporate services to third parties abroad presents companies with new structural challenges.

Many fear the loss of control implicit in the process. But Jane Linder of Accenture's Institute for Strategic Change says that the majority of those who pass on traditional back-office functions to others find, in the end, that substituting a single supplier for many employees allows them greater control and discipline over their operations. At the same time, it frees them to think more clearly about strategy. And the boost to efficiency means lower prices and better services for customers everywhere. That, surely, is not something to fear.
In a market economy, people should be doing the jobs that they can do best.
post #48 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Castanza
THAT'S MY POINT!!
It's always "people can get different jobs..people don't have to get lower paying jobs" That's the CEO mentality that starts all this... "There's always some other job to take up the slack so I can still charge Americans American prices".

Listen, any job that can be done behind a desk can be done overseas for cheaper wages. After enough companies offshore, there ARE NO MORE good paying jobs, then everything shifts down. Tax revenues drop, more people go on federal/state assistance needing tax revenue, it all slides downhill. Deflation.

Why can't people see this?? Again, if offshoring was so good for the economy why don't we just offshore everything and we'll all be rich buying cheap products? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T WORK!
stop playing dominos

the marshall plan didn't destroy the u.s.

you expand, so you can expand markets...if more go offshore, then guess what, more revenues come back to the u.s. anyways, as well as more markets for u.s. goods...you obviously cannot see that

we have huge trade deficits because we are importing more than we export; how do you correct that, make u.s. goods more attractive...how do you do that, by making them cheaper...how do you do that? capital investment for automation and/or cheaper labor..

the labor argument is overblown...labor is resource intensive and inefficient. if a machine can do it, let it...
post #49 of 147
Quote:
you expand, so you can expand markets...if more go offshore, then guess what, more revenues come back to the u.s. anyways, as well as more markets for u.s. goods...you obviously cannot see that
That's correct. McKinsey's report estimates a net benefit of $1.12 to $1.14 for every dollar of cost offshored.
post #50 of 147
Here's some more...

Quote:
Stolen jobs?
Dec 11th 2003
From The Economist print edition

The rules of free trade apply to services as well as goods

IN AMERICA, in Britain, in Australia, an awful thought has gripped employees in the past six months or so: India may do for services what China already does for manufacturing. Any product can be made in China less expensively than in the rich countries. Is it merely a matter of time before any service that can be electronically transmitted is produced in India more cheaply too? As “offshoring”—a hideous word to describe work sent overseas, often outsourced—has spread from manufacturing to white-collar services, so the pressure on legislators to step in has increased (see article).

Manufacturers have used overseas suppliers for years. But now, cheaper communications allow companies to move back-office tasks such as data entry, call centres and payroll processing to poorer countries. India has three huge attractions for companies: a large pool of well-educated young workers, low wages and the English language. But plenty of other industrialising countries also handle back-office work. Moreover, given the pressure on costs in rich countries, offshore sourcing of services will grow: a much-quoted study by Forrester, a consultancy, last year predicted that 3.3m American jobs (500,000 of them in IT) would move abroad by 2015. And the quality of outsourcing will improve. Many of the jibes at Indian outsourcing today—about thick accents and unreliable technology—sound like the jeers at unreliable and ugly Japanese cars 30 years ago.

No wonder politicians are under pressure to discourage companies (and public agencies) from sending service work abroad. To do so, though, would be as self-defeating as stopping the purchase of goods or components abroad. For, although the jobs killed by outsourcing abroad are easy to spot, the benefits are less visible but even greater.

Like trade in goods, trade in services forces painful redistributions of employment. A study for the Institute for International Economics found that, in 1979-99, 69% of people who lost jobs as a result of cheap imports in sectors other than manufacturing found new work. But those figures are only for America, with its flexible job market, and leave a large minority who did not find new employment. Moreover, 55% of those who found new jobs did so at lower pay, and 25% took pay cuts of 30% or more. Some of the gains from free trade need to be used to ease the transition of workers into new jobs.

But those gains are substantial. Some arise simply from organising work in more effective ways. A fair part of the work that moves abroad represents an attempt by companies to provide a round-the-clock service, by making use of time zones. To that extent, offshoring directly improves efficiency.

In addition, a recent report on offshoring from McKinsey estimates that every dollar of costs the United States moves offshore brings America a net benefit of $1.12 to $1.14 (the additional benefit to the country receiving the investment comes on top). Part of this arises because, as low value-added jobs go abroad, labour and investment can switch to jobs that generate more economic value. This is what has happened with manufacturing: employment has dwindled, but workers have moved into educational and health services where pay is higher (and conditions often more agreeable).

The thirst for the new

What of innovation, though? At present, most new products and services are developed in the rich world—and, indeed, predominantly in the United States. Many Americans fear that all those bright young Chinese and Indians will steal not just jobs but the rich world's most precious skills. One of the uglier side-effects of the growing hostility to exporting service jobs has been a move to reduce the availability of visas for temporary workers in skilled jobs and especially in IT, on the grounds that they transfer knowledge and skills back home, taking jobs and innovation with them.

To such fears there are two answers. First, some innovation will undoubtedly move abroad: the relocation of research and design, and the enormous increase in the numbers of highly trained graduates, will ensure that happens. But the transfer may be slower and more modest than xenophobes fear. Innovation needs the right culture to flourish. Chinese and Indians in California generate more new ideas than they do in their homelands. It may be that America's long tradition of embracing new ideas and new ways of doing things, combined with a willingness to question authority, ensures that the country continues to foster innovation more effectively than most industrialising countries can do.

Second, innovation abroad makes everyone richer. The British once feared the rise of America's industrial might: today, both nations are vastly wealthier than they were. In services, as in goods, trade brings benefits too great to refuse.
post #51 of 147
Most outsourcing is a double edged sword: We lose low end phone support jobs but in exchange we gain larger discounts on Dell products. Besides Americans want to be paid too much for too little work. I've seen it around any job I've ever had too often - during the late 90's when I first started college, I used to watch guys with MSCE certificates or other computer techs slack off 50-60% of the time while demanding $17+/hr from their employer. Now the same guys are crying because they can't get a high paying job anymore, well too bad. If Americans didn't demand $15/hr or more for simple jobs like phone support, they woudln't be outsourced to other countries. Fact is that simple jobs like those are minimum wage at best, its not like they require a lot of effort.

The world is a changing place where "backward" third worlders are quickly catching up in education and industrialization. The days of Euro/US dominance in education and industry are slipping away yet they still haven't awaken from the daze of being at the top yet - but reality always puts things back into perspective sooner or later. I wonder how many people here realize a lot of Intel R&D is offshore at places like Israel? Now ask yourselves why.
post #52 of 147
Americans are demanding a living wage in an expensive country to live in. $15/hr translates to a mere $31K/yr, whether you slack off or not.
post #53 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntgrSpin
Americans are demanding a living wage in an expensive country to live in. $15/hr translates to a mere $31K/yr, whether you slack off or not.
Its too much to demand from a job that requires no education and is merely an entry level task.
post #54 of 147
You can quote all these "economists" as much as you want... We have NEVER faced this magnitude of ease in offshoring jobs as we do now. Nothing in the past compares to this. Computer jobs replacing manufacturing jobs still kept new high paying jobs here. This is NOT the same. The numbers may look good now, in a pyramid scheme they always do....I'm not saying it's here yet...but it's coming... Greed breeds greed.

This money coming back is coming back in the pockets of CEO's, not to the economy.

Again, answer the question. If offshoring is so damn good for the economy, why don't we just offshore everything and we'll all be rich???
post #55 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Castanza
You can quote all these "economists" as much as you want... We have NEVER faced this magnitude of ease in offshoring jobs as we do now. Nothing in the past compares to this. Computer jobs replacing manufacturing jobs still kept new high paying jobs here. This is NOT the same. The numbers may look good now, in a pyramid scheme they always do....I'm not saying it's here yet...but it's coming... Greed breeds greed.

This money coming back is coming back in the pockets of CEO's, not to the economy.

Again, answer the question. If offshoring is so damn good for the economy, why don't we just offshore everything and we'll all be rich???
CEO's make billions per year now? Dell makes billions in sales, I don't think Michael Dell pockets all that. Rather I think a bulk goes to investors. Offshoring only hurts to a small extent but the economists aren't wrong. Even after offshoring, the American GDP hasn't fallen so thats proof enough. The only people I see whining are either lazy engineers, guys with a dumb certifcate like MSCE or people that expected high pay for an easy job like phone support.
post #56 of 147
Quote:
You can quote all these "economists" as much as you want... We have NEVER faced this magnitude of ease in offshoring jobs as we do now. Nothing in the past compares to this.
Don't write it, prove it. Give me numbers.

Quote:
Again, answer the question. If offshoring is so damn good for the economy, why don't we just offshore everything and we'll all be rich??
Because the real world isn't so simplistic. Read a bit.
post #57 of 147
Quote:
Its too much to demand from a job that requires no education and is merely an entry level task.
That's for the market to decide (which it has)
post #58 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntgrSpin
That's for the market to decide (which it has)
Yep it sure has. I knew this would happen back in the 90s anyway. My cousin who has ZERO knowledge of computers got a job with US Robotics in the silicon valley back then as phone tech support (I couldn't stop laughing at this) and she was making $18/hr for it. It was inevitable that people like her wouldn't retain such a position for long without qualifications. Just to give you an example, my wife has a biotechnology degree from UC Davis and her starting pay at BioMarin was barely $17/hr - and anyone that has been to college knows a biotech degree is fairly difficult to get. Now she's attending pharmacy school to get better pay. These entry jobs with $17/hr were simply unrealistic.
post #59 of 147
I'd love to jump in here and let you all know how it really is. I'm surprised to see so many people that understand the real deal, that is good. But I find that people who are rabidly against off-shoring are so emotionally rapped up and in such a reactive fear mode they can't really listen to reason or discuss it. They only hear and under stand what they feel.

Listen, anyone who can do your job better and cheaper is potentially going to take your job from you. It doesn't matter if it's your next door neighbor or a martian. Your best bet is to work hard, continuously improve your skills, and live well within your means. If you do that, you will have nothing to fear. If you don't do that, you will lose your job eventually to somebody, some day.

Good luck.
post #60 of 147
In an average year, the US economy destroys and creates about 30 million jobs. Forrester research estimates a total of 3.5 million jobs offshored by 2015. That's a total outflow of 0.5% in the industries affected.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Dell Notebooks - General
NotebookForums.com › Forums › Notebook Manufacturers › Dell Forums › Dell Notebooks - General › News story: Foreigners gain thousands of jobs on Dell US staff