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my 9860 vs. xpsGen2 dilemma

post #1 of 54
3/11/05 at 6:09pm
Thread Starter 
Let me start out with how I am feeling

I have a pre-order in for a XPSGen2. I nearly ordered a 9860. On a daily basis, I flop back and forth sometimes two times about what to do.

Some background on me: I am a software developer, mostly windows .net, asp, php, asp.net intranet applications, Microsoft, Mysql, and soon to be Oracle database development is a big part of what I do. Right now, I have my lappie loaded up with lots of this type of stuff, and a look at my process viewer would show asp.net, IIS, SQL taking 256M Ram, two sets of SQL tools, outlook, winamp, and nod32 AV, all struggling to sit in 512M. I like to game, mostly mmorpg's, driving games, etc. I have a 3.2G X800 desktop at home I game on most frequently. Machine travels back and forth to work every day, and 2-3 times a week to client sites.

Here's the quandry: I really am into the lighter weight of the Dell and the video performance. I also know Dells, have dell servers, and have owned the inspirion line before. I think the XPS2 may work well for me business apps wise, and we all know it should be able to game with the best of them. I like the customercare options, and the onsite service means no sending my lappie around the world in the event of a failure.

The Sager is quite intriguing though, and I think that aside from it's weight, it is more likely what I would use the machine for, brutal database work, moving large files around, 30 second compiles, etc.

However, I am left with a somewhat less than confident feeling about support and the build quality of the Clevo design. I hear issues about extreme heat, loud continuously running fans, chafing cases, dead pixels, throttling on battery, etc. and it leaves me with a feeling that this thing isn't going to last the 2-3 years I need it to.

I looked through the archives, and the Sagers that are older and have been sitting for a while seem to be disintegrating, like the 5760, and I worry that the 9860 will be in the same boat in one year.

The Dells seem to be holding up better across the long haul... I know this is a lot of info to chew on... anyone have any comments?
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post #2 of 54
3/11/05 at 6:18pm
Same boat, developer also. I went with the XPS2. I trust Dell more
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post #3 of 54
3/11/05 at 6:22pm

XPS2 is King for a day (or three months or so)

I felt the same way, but I cancelled my 9860 and today ordered the XPS2. The Dell is lighter, has a vastly superior video card, longer battery life (swappable batteries vs. the 9860’s which screw in) and a much better deal through my business (non business buyers should look for $750 off coupons). The 9860 has some nice features, but the XPS2 wins out for me in the core categories which fit my uses. The XPS2 is the fastest gaming laptop available for order today and with real world usability. It is not as extreme as the 9860, but currently out performs it in gaming. Three months from now the Dell will be passed up as tech advances, but I will feel better knowing that it was king for a day.

Inspiron XPS-Gen2,Pentium M 770 (2.13GHz/533MHz FSB)
17in True Life Wide Screen UXGA
2GB,DDR,533MHz 2 Dimm
256MB NVIDIA GeForce Go 6800 Ultra
60GB Ultra ATA 7200RPM Hard Drive
Microsoft Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2 English
Integrated 1 Gigabit Network Card and Modem
8X DVD+/-RW Drive
Intel PRO/Wireless 2915 Internal Wireless (802.11 a/b/g,54Mbps
80 WHr 9-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
Backpack Carrying Case,for Inspiron XPS-Gen2
Microsoft Office 2003 Small Business and EducateU(includesPowerpoint,and Business Contact Manager)
Next Business Day Parts and Labor On-Site Response, 3YR Extended
CompleteCare Accidental DamageService, Inspiron, 4 Year
Int Dell Wirless 350 Bluetoothfor Inspiron XPS-Gen2
80 WHr 9-cell Lithium Ion Additional Battery,for Inspiron XPS-Gen2
Personalization Shield w/Inserts,for Inspiron XPS-G2
Dell 1600n Multi-Function Laser Printer
Dell 3000cn Color Laser Printer
Axim X30, Intel 312MHz, 32MB Intel StrataFlash, 32MB SDRAM,3.5iQVGA
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post #4 of 54
3/11/05 at 6:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dma550
Let me start out with how I am feeling

I have a pre-order in for a XPSGen2. I nearly ordered a 9860. On a daily basis, I flop back and forth sometimes two times about what to do.

Some background on me: I am a software developer, mostly windows .net, asp, php, asp.net intranet applications, Microsoft, Mysql, and soon to be Oracle database development is a big part of what I do. Right now, I have my lappie loaded up with lots of this type of stuff, and a look at my process viewer would show asp.net, IIS, SQL taking 256M Ram, two sets of SQL tools, outlook, winamp, and nod32 AV, all struggling to sit in 512M. I like to game, mostly mmorpg's, driving games, etc. I have a 3.2G X800 desktop at home I game on most frequently. Machine travels back and forth to work every day, and 2-3 times a week to client sites.

Here's the quandry: I really am into the lighter weight of the Dell and the video performance. I also know Dells, have dell servers, and have owned the inspirion line before. I think the XPS2 may work well for me business apps wise, and we all know it should be able to game with the best of them. I like the customercare options, and the onsite service means no sending my lappie around the world in the event of a failure.

The Sager is quite intriguing though, and I think that aside from it's weight, it is more likely what I would use the machine for, brutal database work, moving large files around, 30 second compiles, etc.

However, I am left with a somewhat less than confident feeling about support and the build quality of the Clevo design. I hear issues about extreme heat, loud continuously running fans, chafing cases, dead pixels, throttling on battery, etc. and it leaves me with a feeling that this thing isn't going to last the 2-3 years I need it to.

I looked through the archives, and the Sagers that are older and have been sitting for a while seem to be disintegrating, like the 5760, and I worry that the 9860 will be in the same boat in one year.

The Dells seem to be holding up better across the long haul... I know this is a lot of info to chew on... anyone have any comments?
I have a Sager that has nearly 4 years and it is still running, I had to change the AC adaptor once. I also have a Dell Inspiron 5150 (one year old) and the ethernet port is dying and the fans are on often because the average temperature of the CPU has risen over time.

If you do heavy calculations, the P4 processor is going to help you more than the pentium M. If battery life and weight is more of an issue, yes go with the XPS2.
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post #5 of 54
3/11/05 at 7:12pm
I do development also, and ended up with a Sager (see signature).

It currently has Oracle 10g server, SQL Server 2005 beta, VS.NET 2003 (work app), Delphi 7 (fatwallet scanner coding), VS 6sp5 (C++ DLL for FW Scanner), the TV application (Seinfeld reruns), Forte Agent downloading some files, Mirc 6.16 (Linux chat) and Firefox browsing this forum/Fatwallet site. About to add Photoshop to the mix (btw PS barely makes a blip on the CPU/Memory when opened).

No lag at all, quick response. I'll be happy to load up PSmon if you'd like to see cpu/mem usage during a .NET compile (my solution has 5 forms).
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post #6 of 54
3/11/05 at 7:27pm
Akirafist, how did you get the pentium 660 - was it from Sager, or a mod? I went to their site but didnt find that processor.
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post #7 of 54
3/11/05 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dma550
Let me start out with how I am feeling .....
However, I am left with a somewhat less than confident feeling about support and the build quality of the Clevo design. I hear issues about extreme heat, loud continuously running fans, chafing cases, dead pixels, throttling on battery, etc. and it leaves me with a feeling that this thing isn't going to last the 2-3 years I need it to.

I looked through the archives, and the Sagers that are older and have been sitting for a while seem to be disintegrating, like the 5760, and I worry that the 9860 will be in the same boat in one year.

The Dells seem to be holding up better across the long haul... I know this is a lot of info to chew on... anyone have any comments?
The build quality of the 9860 is impressive! Many here will agree with me I am sure. I can say this with confidence after working for Dell 3 years in sales and hardware onsite service. Of course, I do not have experience with the XPS2, but the other models like the 8600, 600m, 5150, and others I do know about. I firmly believe they have a 'cheaper' feel all over, as well as have had hardware issues. Dell does have its good points like complete care, excellent for those who travel a lot with their system. For the ultimate power and future upgradeability Clevo/Sager is an excellent choice!
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post #8 of 54
3/11/05 at 7:45pm
its on all the resellers sites. It has been an option for about 3 weeks now.
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post #9 of 54
3/11/05 at 8:08pm
It's a close call...depends on what yuo want more....LED and flashy looking system on the outside......also do you want something lighter in weight, smaller in size and less fan noise....if that is the case go with the XPS2....otherwise i still think the Sager 9860 has the BEST quality laptop/screen combo around.........the new WUXGA screen is NOT the best......it's basically the 9200 WUXGA screen with a glossy coating..........I just got my 9300 with the WUXGA screen, and while it seams better than the 9200 sparkly screen, but it looks to me like they took the 9200 screen and lessened some of the sparkly effect by adding the gloss......

-Scotty
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post #10 of 54
3/11/05 at 8:14pm
If all your going to do is gaming then go XPS2, but if you want a FAST processor and more features go 9860. I have had 4 dell notebooks prior to going Sager.....I wont buy a dell again. As for XPS2 being the fastest laptop.....one needs to ship first. Until then the 9860 is the fastest notebook and by the time dell ship the 9860 WILL be faster. Both of my 9860's have been perfect. I have had no pixel or noise problems. My 9860 noise level is about the same as my last inspiron. The 9860 does get warm, but not to the point that it bothers me. They sold me and I was a dell guy. I have a 3.6 EMT64, 2048MB DDR2, nVIDIA 6800 GDDR3, 2X80GB Raid 0.
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post #11 of 54
3/11/05 at 10:04pm
I would think the two hard drives on the 9860 is definitely an advantage. And a 64bit processor with Win64 applications that you use might really increase performance in a year or so.
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post #12 of 54
3/11/05 at 10:30pm
Hypothetical:
If the thermal factor of the 9860 can not accommodate the 6800 Ultra? Will the XPS2 be the favored gaming platform for some time to come? Obviously, there will be progress, and the AMD solution will arrive around the corner, but shouldn’t the XPS2 get its due for being a pretty good solution for everyday usability coupled with the highest level of gaming reached to date? I had ordered the Clevo, but changed to get the XPS2 because of the Ultra card mostly, but also the improved battery life with little trade off in overall system performance. I see a lot of Clevo buyers returning them because of the liberal return policy and I think the disappointment of the 6800 DDR3 card having lower than expected clock rates. All this will continually change though. I guess part of the fun of getting the latest and greatest is just that. Problem is we are disappointed when our big purchase is ousted as the top dog. The Clevo does have better upgradeability, but I needed to get a new lappy and the XPS2 is more practical for me. Further, the performance suggested in http://www.tomshardware.com/mobile/20050224/index.html and http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2356 was unbelievable. Sure the Clevo may top it in the next round, but then there is always the next round after that and so on. Either system is a sound investment I believe.
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post #13 of 54
3/11/05 at 11:15pm
DMA550 this topic has been discussed in this forum before and it had to be locked because it spiralled out of control. I am not sure if this is an attemt to do this again or not but asking is a Dell is better than a Sager in the Sager forum is kind of a formula for disaster. You may want to repost it in the Notebook General Discussion. It seems that by your description of your delema that you have already desided on the Dell. You have stated all the positives about the Dell and when it comes to talking about the Clevo/ Sager you state your reservations.

I believe they are both Great machines and they both have good things and bad things about them so it comes down to one thing. What YOU feel best about spending YOUR money on. I know for a fact that once you have something in your head you are never pleased with any substitute. I would recommend in your case to purchase the Dell. It seems to be the machine for you. I wish you all the Best with your purchase.
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post #14 of 54
3/11/05 at 11:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brick
I would think the two hard drives on the 9860 is definitely an advantage. And a 64bit processor with Win64 applications that you use might really increase performance in a year or so.
if your looking for a powerhouse yes! Hes considering the dell too though, thats more of a portable oriented laptop. He has to be true with himself on what his priorities are: either more processing power or longer battery life. The 2 systems are kings in their respective kingdoms
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post #15 of 54
3/11/05 at 11:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambitwogunz
if your looking for a powerhouse yes! Hes considering the dell too though, thats more of a portable oriented laptop. He has to be true with himself on what his priorities are: either more processing power or longer battery life. The 2 systems are kings in their respective kingdoms
I agree with you on this. They are comparable, but very different. The perfect DTR has yet to be made. I think that the XPS 2 is a step in the right direction for being portable though.
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post #16 of 54
3/12/05 at 1:07am
Thread Starter 
Thanks guys

I appreciate the feedback... sounds like other developers are in the same boat as me.

Drowis, I've not made any decisions yet, but it was smart to reserve my place in line with the Dell for the April 11th. I have a notebook coming off lease shortly, that needs to be returned by 5/20. Given that, I have placed (3) different XPS orders to get better pricing, but no money's been spent yet.

I'd like for this thread not to degrade into a fight, and it's looking nice and clean so far. I think that I want the power of the 9860, but I don't want it to be a throw-away a year later when it breaks down, or gets a band across the LCD like a recent poster sent in. I'm not knocking the 9860, I could care less about battery, matter of fact, if Sager put out a blank that knocked 1-2 lbs off the machine by removing the battery, I'd buy it!

Here's my biggest fear with the Dell; that it's perhaps a one-trick pony, and that the glowing video power of the card it has is meant to outshine the raw IO that the machine can perform. This would mean that I would enjoy it at lunch when I fire up Wow to do some auction house trading, but I would groan when developing and the machine goes into stutters because of all of the needy processes I run.

Truthfully, I'm not trying to start a flame war, and I know this sounds whiney; The problem is that (a) the Dell isn't out yet, so I can only speculate how well it would perform my tasks, and (b) The Sager requires an investment and a leap of faith that I'm nervous about making. I'm more of an up-front research type of person, I'm not the kind of person that would just buy 4 and return the 3 I don't like (not that I have the 12K laying around lol)

I have an appointment with a guy I met on this forum that just got his 9860, once I see it and play with it a bit maybe it will become clearer. I hate not being able to try each of these out before dropping $3000-$3600!

Thanks again
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post #17 of 54
3/12/05 at 1:08am
Thread Starter 
AMbi, why is yours RMA'd? Just wondering, didn't see it posted in other places.
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post #18 of 54
3/12/05 at 1:58am
DMA I am in Rhode Island and I just noticed you are in conneticuit so if your meeting falls thru to try out the 9860 I can meet up with you as well. My 9860 is scheduled to arrive on monday so I havent even got it yet but I do believe I will be pleased with the results.

As for Ambit's machine he has a few reasons to RMA it. first was a stuck pixel he discovered and secondly he really wants the best of the best and his belief along with many others is that the A64 PCI express machine is right around the corner and that is the machine that makes the most sence to him
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post #19 of 54
3/12/05 at 3:35am
Quote:
Truthfully, I'm not trying to start a flame war, and I know this sounds whiney; The problem is that (a) the Dell isn't out yet, so I can only speculate how well it would perform my tasks, and (b) The Sager requires an investment and a leap of faith that I'm nervous about making. I'm more of an up-front research type of person, I'm not the kind of person that would just buy 4 and return the 3 I don't like (not that I have the 12K laying around lol)
Don't worry, you're not sounding whiney. The thread that was closed was pretty pathetic. If you can't post Sager comparisons with other companies in the Sager section anymore then there's a problem with the Sager community which didn't exist before.

Honestly for number crunching I'd go with the 9860. Both computers will be a bit awkward to lug around without a backpack. The XPS2 is lighter but not exactly 'small'...The P4 has better number crunching times than the P-M which in the long run is what you want. What I'd do is try to find a reseller that has good, fast support...support where the computer is fixed within the week (like Dell).

Right now I'm wondering if there is one. Alienware is off the list (they keep the computers way too long), I've heard not so good things about Sager which unfortunately is what PCT, Discountlaptops and others go through. I've read that FNW support is very good but then the price is prohibitive. You might want to ask around about its support turnaround time.

So, if you can find similar support that Dell would offer for the Clevo/9860, I'd take that. If not...I'd lose sleep leaning one way and the other day after day like you are.
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post #20 of 54
3/12/05 at 8:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pplepiew
I've heard not so good things about Sager which unfortunately is what PCT, Discountlaptops and others go through.
What have you heard about Sager? I've had nothing but excellent service from the guys at Sager, both over the phone and in person. And I can't comment on the new PCIe machines (because I haven't seen one in person ), but my 8890's been a solid investment over the past year and a half.

dma550, to me it sounds like you'd benefit more from the sheer power of the P4 and the capability for dual HDDs in the 9860. The battery life and physical size of the 9860 are really it's only weaknesses and if you can handle those, then I think you'd get better performance out of it. Even though it doesn't have the Ultra (yet), the 6800DDR3 and the X800 are still both great cards and are more than sufficient for the functionality you specified. By all means, wait until you see an 9860 yourself - then you can see the screen/chasis/performance quality yourself.

For what it's worth, I'm very happy with my Sager and fully intend on getting another clevo machine when I upgrade.
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