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My HORRENDOUS Sager tech support experience (SO FAR) - Page 4

post #61 of 81
11/12/03 at 12:09am
Thread Starter 
There is nothing unusual in the event log in the minutes leading up to the reboot. And there is no pattern the events logged before the reboot that happened today and the one that happened yesterday, or on 14 October.

I haven't noticed a pattern to the applications I have running at the time of the reboots. Of course I run many of the same apps on any given day, but no pattern. Back in July, I thought it was Windows Media Player-related because that seemed to be the common thread, so I didn't use it for a couple of days but that had no effect.

The only pattern seems to be that I can't go more than a couple of weeks without having something really annoying go wrong with this machine. Either it reboots at an inopportune time, or I'm constantly getting knocked off the network, or I can't burn a CD. Sometimes all three on the same day.

It's not like I'm running obscure software, except maybe the developer tools for Windows CE. (But it has rebooted when those tools aren't running.) I'm using XP + service packs + patches, a bunch of Microsoft stuff, AOL IM, Norton AV, and a couple of other programs. Nothing really exotic. No weird skinning apps, window blinds, explorer.exe alternative, etc.

I'm using stock Sager drivers. Maybe that's the problem. Maybe somebody will come along and say 'bingo' because I'm using standard drivers. I'll have to download hacked drivers from some guy in Slovenia's home page.

Filemon is a good suggestion. I appreciate your suggestions scholty. I'll install it in a couple of days and keep it running. At the moment, I have some deadlines and I really need to focus on that and forget about these laptop problems.
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post #62 of 81
11/12/03 at 12:12am
Thread Starter 
Oh and the last reboot was about 4 hours ago. I think it also rebooted yesterday, and once last week. Beyond that I know it rebooted on 14 October because I think that was the first time after I reinstalled the OS.
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post #63 of 81
11/12/03 at 2:06am
What I would do is make sure my backups are in order so that you don't loose any data. Then when you have time stress the system with some of the tools you continously use while running filemon. Just let it crank in the background (obviously watch your disk space) and see what's in there when it happens.

Run the memory test several times... Don't just let one test persuade you that's it. After reboot write down EXACTLY what you did over the last 30 minutes before this happened.

The weirdest troubleshooting call I had was our company network TOTALLY flaking out on us between 7-9AM and 4-5PM. We ran all kinds of diagnostics and couldn't figure out WHY in the world we had these problems. Then a couple weeks later they did some maintenance on the elevators. A geek happened to take a look into the shaft being noisy (Yeah we are geeks alright <grin>) and noticed something funny. The wiring contractor had pulled all the networkcables through the elevator shaft. With the elevators going up and down in the morning non-stop they caused interference and we had problems. Had them REWIRE everything on THEIR penny and e'voila... problems solved. Anyway... I digress...

Go to each vendor and use THEIR latest drivers (ATI, Hitachi,etc.). Could be a driver issue.

If you have time to rebuild again install all of your apps and ghost it like a couple of kind sould suggested before. Not the ideal solution but oh well.

Make sure though you write down EVERYTHING you did before it crashed though. You might find something that's odd...

Wouldn't blame Sager though... If I got a laptop and someone couldn't reproduce the problem for me I would be kind of wary as well....

Oh, one last thing... Have you tried disabling your network card and running on a PCMCIA card..??? That way you can rule out the nic going funky on you. Also, do you happen to have a second bay with CD so you can disable the main drive...?

Let me know what you think...
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post #64 of 81
11/13/03 at 12:38am
Here is a dumb idea, did you try to update your BIOS? There is a new version of it on this site.

Also if that fails its time to call the reseller to arrange a replacement.

What you have had happen to you is a major NO GO. After the 3rd complaint you should have been offered a new unit.


This unit is having too many problems to be software related. I hope you can get this matter resolved.
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post #65 of 81
4/17/04 at 10:20pm
What happened at the end? How come this thread ended without a solution to the problem? Did Dmooney get his comp to working order again??? So many unanswered Qs. This is troubling. I am about to re-order and I wouldn't want the same problem/lack of support from sager.
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post #66 of 81
4/17/04 at 11:20pm
Well, Fungo, I think if you read through this thread completely you may come to the realization of why dmooney has lots of problems with computers. As someone suggested early on, we only are seeing one half of the story here between dmooney and SAGER tech support. However, I suggest that missing half was similar to the other forum members half of the communication between them and dmooney.

I suppose dmooney eventually either gave up and moved into a cave in Tibet or shotgunned his SAGER and bought a DELL.

The main point is, you can never tell anything about something from a single isolated case. Its like doing a poll on who should be president and asking only one person. Well, you are going to get an answer, one way or the other. It may represent the majority or it may not. How about if you ask three people in Orange County, odds are the president will then be a Republican because most people in Orange County are Republicans. Or if you ask 100 people in Berserkely, then Mr.s Prez is going to be a Democrat or perhaps a Black Panther.

You simply cannot judge anything from a small sample, in this case, a single sample.

I don't know, perhaps dmooney's problems are for real, perhaps he did get a lemon and perhaps he also got really bad Tech Support as well. And maybe his replacement motherboard was bad and the replacement RAM and the replacement everything. Maybe when he reinstalled the OS, it was from a faulty CD or whatever. Then again, it could be dmooney that has problems. I really don't know. In a single sample, anything can and often does happen.

However, if you look at resellersratings for PCT you will see a fairly large sample that is overwhelmingly positive. If you read through these forums, you will get a very positive attitude about SAGER and its support. Are they perfect, no, but neither is anything else. I can offer an opposing single case, my own, with a lot more credence than dmooney, cause it involves 6 machines over 10 years. So far I have no complaints. With either the product or the service. Well, not zero complaints, I do feel the paint they use is inadequate. But I have only noticed maybe a dozen others complaining about the same thing out of several thousand SAGER members. So I have to assume its probably something to do with my particular sweat and the heat and humidity of Hawaii than with the general quality of paint they use. Still, it could be improved. Better yet, they could use solid color plastic and forget about pain problems. I also don't really care for the call-back tech support. For most people who can't be at a phone 24/7, its clumsy. But its not any worse than most others. And I can tell you some real horror stories about Tech Support. However, to date with about 20 calls over the 10 years, I feel its been pretty good.

In dmooney's case, I think he got off to a bad start and eventually he just hardened into being dissatisfied. I note one thing, when he was continually advised to reinstall the OS, he adamently resisted, concentrating on his problems with Tech Support. When he was repeatedly asked for the name of the reseller he purchased the machine from, he never answered. Frankly, that would have been the first thing I would have noted. And that reseller would have been the first person I would have been complaining to. But he never did.

For all I know, dmooney was just a troll. Somebody determined to stir up trouble and give SAGER a bad name. Then again, maybe he's totally for real. In either case, its a singular sample and making decisions on a single sample is a bad idea.

You can take your cues from his supposed experience or from mine and many others: one bad one, which is entirely possible (perhaps he has a voice and accent that reminded the tech he initally spoke to of the crazed uncle that ran over his pet gerbil as a child and it hearing it again, it sent him into a psychotic rage, determined to make dmooney's life total hell), versus the thousands of good ones.

In the end, its all a crap shoot. If you feel SAGER is a going to be a problem, then I can almost guaranty it will be. So don't buy it. Anytime you are spending $2000 to $3000 on something and you are not 100% convinced, you shouldn't do it.
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post #67 of 81
4/19/04 at 2:33am
One can't really assume that it's a hardware problem until the OS has been reinstalled, or even a CD-based OS tried. I'm a helpdesk tech at school, and the first thing we tell people to do is to reformat, even if you're just reinstalling the same OS. Quirks can work up when the OEM is building the system and stress testing the hardware, and these quirks can sometimes be overlooked. This is especially the case with Dell and IBM, which are our two primary vendors.
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post #68 of 81
4/19/04 at 10:45am
Thread Starter 
In the end we gave up trying to fix the rebooting problem. Sager either has my laptop right now, or it is in transit coming back to me. The latest set of repairs were to replace a faulty LAN connector and DVD/CDRW drive. They also found the memory was failed a diagnostic test but I have chosen to replace that myself once I get the machine back.

So in the end, I've had the notebook for about a year and five things failed:

1) battery - replaced under warranty

2) power adapter plug on the power supply that connects to the notebook - I didn't file an RMA for this since I felt it was my fault. I paid to replace this myself. However, I don't think the design of the plug is as good as some other machines I've tried. It is a metal barrel with some pins inside wrapped in a thin plastic casing, subject to bending and deforming, and it plugs into the side of the notebook. It is vulnerable to bending if the notebook slides off your leg and the weight of the notebook rests on the plug itself.

An example of a good design would be the Dell power adapter plug which is hard plastic and plugs into the back of the machine. You'd have to hit that plug with a hammer to break it and there is no chance of resting the weight of the machine on it since it plugs into the back.

3) LAN connector - I don't really use the built in NIC that much. Normally I use a WiFi PC-Card. I reported to Sager last summer that the NIC was failing intermittently. When I sent them the machine to look at the rebooting problem last summer, they said via email they would also look at this problem but they did not so I got the machine back and it still had this NIC problem. I recently sent the machine again (why it took so long is a long story) and they diagnosed the problem as needing a replacement LAN connector.

4) DVD/CDRW drive - I don't use this very often either, but it also failed some time last summer. It actually degraded before failing to work at all. This was also something Sager agreed to look at but did not. When I sent the machine back a few weeks ago they diagnosed it as needing to be replaced.

5) Memory - apparently my RAM is bad. Sager reported it as failing a diagnostic. Sager instructed me to run some diagnostics myself in November and everything passed at that time so this must be a new thing.

After they stopped communicating with me last summer after I got the machine back but still had problems, I posted here and then based on a suggestion here I contacted PCTorque. Laura @ PCTorque has been the only bright spot in this experience. She has been very helpful and has acted as a communications channel between Sager and myself. Laura was emailing with the "lead engineer" at Sager and he had me run some tests. He concluded that the NIC and CD drive both required the system be sent in. He ran out of ideas on the rebooting issue -- but I've given up on that -- I think it might just be an XP thing since I've seen another laptop do the same thing -- at this point I've given up on that problem.

Anyway, so it took me some time finally get the machine sent back to them. I shipped it on March 9th with a note reminding them of the specific problems I've been having and my contact information. I got a phone call from Sean at Sager on March 19th; he left a message on my home machine. This was the start of the "warrany dispute" chapter. It turns out that during work-related delay sending the machine in, my warrany expired and they wanted to charge me for the drive, lan connector, memory, labor (total $405) and return shipping. I called back and said just that everything should be covered by warranty, except possibly the memory, because I reported these problems last summer before sending the machine in the first time.

I felt I had a pretty strong case, and Laura agreed, since I reported the problem and they had a chance to fix it while it was still under warranty. At this point they stopped communicating with me again. I put in another callback requests via the website and did not get a call. On Apr 2 I emailed them asking for status and got this reply the same day:

"I has been send 2 itme E-mail already. This is out of warranty repair and our technician found it need to replace COMBO driver $ 160.00 + DDR-512 $ 150.00 + lan connector $ 15.00 + LABOR $ 80.00 + shipping. We still waiting your approval and credit card payment."

I never got either of those two emails; I don't think they were really sent. Why were they emailing me anyway when we had just exchanged a pair of messages by phone?

In the end Sager couldn't email me reliably and Laura had to step in. It was determined that since the CD and NIC problems were not reported in the original RMA but only in email regarding the RMA that those problems did not "count" as being reported during the warranty period and Sager was not obligated to fix them the first time the machine was sent. Sager agreed to waive the LAN connector, labor and shipping (~$100) but wanted to charge me for the drive ($160) and memory ($150). I put up one last fight to get them to cover the drive but eventually caved and authorized my CC for the for the drive. I figure I can get the memory anywhere. I sent the CC auth FAX last monday 4/12 and I am waiting to get the machine back. Laura wasn't able to get a tracking number from them -- I'll remind her today -- so I don't know exactly when I'm getting it back. Hopefully I'll get it back this week, six weeks after I shipped it off.

My two main complaints about this whole thing are that Sager does not communicate reliably or in a timely manner, and the machine was fairly shoddy -- really, really fast, but shoddy. I don't think either of those points can be disputed. Having to pay the $160 was annoying but not as frustrating as the lack of communication. Laura at PC Torque has been great.
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post #69 of 81
4/19/04 at 10:47am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Dean
One can't really assume that it's a hardware problem until the OS has been reinstalled, or even a CD-based OS tried.
Oh I did reinstall the OS at one point and the problems didn't go away. I didn't try a CD-based OS (good idea) but my CD drive wasn't working anyway.
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post #70 of 81
4/19/04 at 11:02am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fungo
What happened at the end? How come this thread ended without a solution to the problem? Did Dmooney get his comp to working order again??? So many unanswered Qs. This is troubling. I am about to re-order and I wouldn't want the same problem/lack of support from sager.
I am hesitant to draw any conclusions about what you might experience based on my experience. My story is simply one data point. Laura @ PC Torque has assured me that my situation is unusual and I can only take her word on that. I'm sure there are hundreds or thousands of people on this forum who would back her up.

I, for one, won't be buying another Sager but that has more to do with how long it takes to get something fixed than anything else. I have learned that in my job I need the on-site, next-day support that somebody like Dell offers. Other vendors will be more willing to replace your machine or give you a loaner than they would be to keep your machine for week after week.
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post #71 of 81
4/19/04 at 1:27pm
Well, did Sager fixed your machine eventually?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmooney
I am hesitant to draw any conclusions about what you might experience based on my experience. My story is simply one data point. Laura @ PC Torque has assured me that my situation is unusual and I can only take her word on that. I'm sure there are hundreds or thousands of people on this forum who would back her up.

I, for one, won't be buying another Sager but that has more to do with how long it takes to get something fixed than anything else. I have learned that in my job I need the on-site, next-day support that somebody like Dell offers. Other vendors will be more willing to replace your machine or give you a loaner than they would be to keep your machine for week after week.
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post #72 of 81
4/19/04 at 2:10pm
My home machine would do this rebooting-on-a-whime with no error message thing too. I couldn't figure it out at the time and I didn't have tech support because I built it myself. I finally turned the memory voltage up .1V and the problem went away.
Just a thought. I haven't read this entire thread so if this has already been mentioned, sorry for repeating.
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post #73 of 81
4/19/04 at 2:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fungo
Well, did Sager fixed your machine eventually?
You may have missed this post: http://notebookforums.com/showthread...669#post217669.
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post #74 of 81
4/19/04 at 3:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmooney
Laura wasn't able to get a tracking number from them -- I'll remind her today -- so I don't know exactly when I'm getting it back.
The notebook is en route and is scheduled to arrive tomorrow. They shipped it to my home address. I told them to ship it to my work address.
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post #75 of 81
4/21/04 at 2:34pm
dmooney: Did you happen to buy your laptop on a credit card...??? IF you did you are in luck cause you got an extra year of warranty in most cases. Call your CC company and ask about it.....

And if this works out...
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post #76 of 81
4/28/04 at 7:41pm
Dude... You're getting a Dell.

<snicker>

Good luck with that. You'll definately need the on-site repair stuff to deal with their cheap components and compatability problems.
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post #77 of 81
4/29/04 at 1:16am
Well, I am a newbie, and I am coming over from the Alienware forum. I am returning my Area51m machine due to it freezing up at random times.

I came here looking for incentive to buy a Sager machine, but wow, after seeing the whipping this dmooney took over his post, I can not believe most of you folks would be of any help to me if I ran into a jam with a Sager machine. I would almost be afraid to post a question, least I get ridiculed.

Who cares what credentials a person claims. If you as a reader are unbelieving or unimpressed, do not respond. Leaving useless chatter helps no one, except maybe the person leaving the useless chatter - makes them feel like they are accomplishing something grand.

Almost forgot - I did reinstall the O/S. My machine still freezes up.
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post #78 of 81
4/29/04 at 1:20am
darkhelmet - check your private messages (PM's)

Thank you
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post #79 of 81
4/30/04 at 7:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhelmet
Well, I am a newbie, and I am coming over from the Alienware forum. I am returning my Area51m machine due to it freezing up at random times.

I came here looking for incentive to buy a Sager machine, but wow, after seeing the whipping this dmooney took over his post, I can not believe most of you folks would be of any help to me if I ran into a jam with a Sager machine. I would almost be afraid to post a question, least I get ridiculed.

Who cares what credentials a person claims. If you as a reader are unbelieving or unimpressed, do not respond. Leaving useless chatter helps no one, except maybe the person leaving the useless chatter - makes them feel like they are accomplishing something grand.

Almost forgot - I did reinstall the O/S. My machine still freezes up.
Darkhelmet,

Let's clear one thing up. dmoney did not start this thread asking for help from anyone. Looking at the title of the thread tells you that its a complete rant. I'm completely sure that if he started a thread asking for help and was like, hey I'm not getting what I need out of Sager does anyone have a suggestion, he would have gotten tons of helpfull replies. I posted a few questions on this forum and have gotten nothing but poeple trying to lend a hand. The responses to dmoney's post are a direct response to the ranting nature that he put forth at the very start. And would you expect less when you come to a message board with hundreds of people that have had nothing but the best experience with a company and then try to bash it?

Photonic
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post #80 of 81
4/30/04 at 7:29pm

amen and one other possible cause of the problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmooney
2) power adapter plug on the power supply that connects to the notebook - I didn't file an RMA for this since I felt it was my fault. I paid to replace this myself. However, I don't think the design of the plug is as good as some other machines I've tried. It is a metal barrel with some pins inside wrapped in a thin plastic casing, subject to bending and deforming, and it plugs into the side of the notebook. It is vulnerable to bending if the notebook slides off your leg and the weight of the notebook rests on the plug itself.

An example of a good design would be the Dell power adapter plug which is hard plastic and plugs into the back of the machine. You'd have to hit that plug with a hammer to break it and there is no chance of resting the weight of the machine on it since it plugs into the back.
I totally agree the power adapter plug is a horrible design. Mine went bad too. Fortunately they replaced it for free. Now I am much more careful with the fragile thing and I bought a spare so when/if another goes bad I can keep on using it while they replace it or whatever.

I have one last suggestion that may explain all the other problems you had. No one else suggested the possibility of Gremlins. Did you feed your Sager after midnight or get it wet at all? Yes, as you can tell, I too have a Comp. Sci. degree.

I hope you stick around these forums despite the hard time everyone gave you. Sounds like you got quite an education the hard way and could offer valuable advice to others here from time to time. Maybe you do that frequently already (I wouldn't know that cause I don't surf the tech support forums regularly here)? anyway, glad to hear your problems are basically resolved.
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