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Advice requested: Laptop for Java Development ... R4000 vs. Z71V

post #1 of 23
6/30/05 at 5:19pm
Thread Starter 
I'm sure you will think I am nuts for asking such a question, but please bear with me for a moment. I am looking for a DTR notebook to do Java development on.

Our particular application is both computational and memory intensive, so I will need 2GB ram and a pretty good processor. There is also a lot of disk access involved in compiling and file loading, so a fast disk drive seems important. Graphics are only moderately important. Our application involves primarily 2D graphics, although we do use the Java3D library for certain functionality. The application reads in and processes huge data files (~40 MB text files -> 1.2 GB Java heap size -> 30-300 minute computational processing time).

I have considered an ASUS Z71V with a 1.6 PM (faster worthwhile?), 1GB 4200 DDR2 ram (I can add the 2nd GB later), and a 60 GB 7200 RPM drive. The cost is about $1650 or so.

I have also considered a Compaq R4000 with an AMD 64 3500+ processor, a 5400 RPM drive, and the base memory to upgrade later. If all pans out with the Office Depot sale this weekend, there should be about $400 in rebates, so it will be sub $1000. I could spend money on a faster processor, or try to stick a 7200 RPM disk in there as well.

I guess what I am not too sure of is how the combination of processor speed, ram speed, and hard disk speed will combine to result in overlap performance for our Java development and the runtime performance of the resulting application. Should I spend money on faster ram, faster disk, or faster processor (4000+ worth it)? Any extra money can be spent elsewhere, so I am not looking to hit a specific budget $$.

I am not too concerned about battery life, and only mildly interested in portability and aethestics - the Z71V does seem to have some real advantages there.

Any opinions will be greatly appreciated !
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post #2 of 23
6/30/05 at 5:49pm
James,

Have you considered the possiblity of using VNC or other remote desktop services to access a more powerful desktop or workstation system from a less powerful notebook? Since your development work involved 2D graphics and a little bit of 3D, it may not. Still, its worth evaluating, because it increases your options.

I have not seen any benchmarks on how well a Pentium-M handles Java compilations. It sure seems to me that this would be one area where the additional compuational power of a Athlon 64 processor might come in handy.

I don't think you could wait on the 2 GB of RAM; you are suggesting that the allocated memory heap the Java Runtime requires when running your application already exceeds 1GB. I think you can get by with a 5400 RPM drive; based on the amount of time it takes to process the text data (30-300 min), it sounds like your application is CPU bound, not I/O bound.

By portability, do you mean the ability to take it from the office to the client to your home and back? Do you have to be able to operate without access to mains? A SFF system might provide a good blend of performance and portability if you can keep a monitor and KB/Mouse at each location and you do not need to be able to run off battery.

All that said, if remote access nor a SFF will work, the Compaq sure sounds closer to what you need than the Z71V.

My $0.02.
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post #3 of 23
6/30/05 at 6:27pm
Doesn't sound like you need the features of the z71v, but be weary of the r4000/zv6000. I was looking into it earlier, and i recall people are having issues with it, one of them being enabling dual channel memory. Check http://www.zv6000forums.com for more info, I stopped checking there after I got my dell.
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post #4 of 23
6/30/05 at 6:40pm
maybe you are fine with integrated graphices ( which means more battery life, cooler , and cheaper)
maybe look into the asus line with a at the end... like z63a (w3v, 14inch widescreen with integrated graphics), z70a (awsome build) .. and all customizable.. soo you can go with 1.6ghz + 1gb of ram .. these probally cost u less than 1400 ..
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post #5 of 23
7/1/05 at 4:36am
The dual channel problem is nothin serious. It is just that the ati chipset disables dual channel as it doesnt support it. MAybe some update in future.

BUt R4000 is really great and no such problems. I get 4 hrs of battery life with the 12cell battery with the amd 4000+ and never even once have I found it to be a bit warm. It is so cool that it can be compared to the centrinos for heat.
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post #6 of 23
7/1/05 at 3:30pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the comments.

Smyttie - At this time, I think that I do need a laptop for work / home / client commuting, but I should keep your point in mind. Regarding the application, I agree that it is CPU bound, however, I am always frustrated with the performance of my current Dell D600 in terms of compiling, debugging, etc. (it has a P-M 1.8, 266 MHz ram, and a 5400 RPM drive). I do think that the disk access speed is an issue. I am never sure how to compare ram, processor, and disk speed tradeoffs. Just loading up Eclipse (Java based IDE) seems to take forever.

All - Thanks also for the comments on the R4000 and other ASUS models - I will check out all these options as well.
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post #7 of 23
7/1/05 at 3:35pm
I know devarshi, but sometimes people get really peeved at that. If only the zv6000/r4000 had come with a decent graphics card, I would have definetely bought it then.
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post #8 of 23
7/1/05 at 3:42pm
if you're compiling code a lot, i would go for the Pentium 4 solutions instead of Pentium M or even AMD64.

Obviously rack up as much RAM as possible and a faster hard drive speed would be nice.

just comparing the two you list, the AMD64 would be my choice for programming. If you go with the Z71v, get the fastest possible processor.

You could save a lot of money on the AMD64 system, then upgrade the hard drive and have a pretty good machine for less than the Z71v.
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post #9 of 23
7/1/05 at 4:16pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the comment !

Any specific recommendations? P4 or otherwise? (I am not wedded to these two models)

I am somewhat concerned about the RAM speed (and lack of dual-channel) on the R4000. Most of the AMD 64 notebooks I have found seem limited to 1GB.

I would really like to find a fast processor, 2GB fast ram, and 7200 RPM disk combined. Battery life, graphics, and portability are secondary (I do realize that makes the Z71V sound like a mismatch).
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post #10 of 23
7/1/05 at 4:23pm
i'm still running a 2.4ghz p4 with 1gb ram on mine, seems like plenty of power, so i wouldn't worry about the absolute top of the line.

Dual channel is always nice, that's for sure. I would only be worried with the processor on the Z71v, the rest of the specs are great. I'm sure that for basic compilation alone, the Z71v would be fine, it's when you're running a few programs at the same time that it might bog down a bit.

If you wanted to spring for the 2.0 Pentium M processor on the Z71v, you'd prob be fine with that.

For a sweet P4 system in that price range, maybe a Sager 4381 or the 17" 4791 from pctorque.
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post #11 of 23
7/1/05 at 5:04pm
You are one of the few people who MUST HAVE 2GB of memory. If your current system doesn't have 2GB, you may want to upgrade it to see how it performs. If that P-M 1.8 system you have now can't do what you want, I doubt a new Sonoma-based system will provide a significant boost.

How slow is your notebook compared to a desktop? I haven't used it in a long time, but I found Eclipse to be a pretty slow app.

You can always buy a firewire enclosure for a desktop drive, pop the drive in, and test out the performace of that to find out how much an upgrade to a 7200 RPM drive would do for you (or just use that setup).

If you really could benefit from faster HDs, then you may want to consider one of those notebooks with 2 bays, so you can set up a RAID to increase your Disk I/O performance.

Based on what I know about your needs, I like the R4000 or something it its class. Just be sure to max out the memory in it.
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post #12 of 23
7/1/05 at 6:37pm
I know this is kind off off-topic... but I'll be taking a C++ course this fall and I want to get a head start in the summer. What is a good book I could use to teach myself? My brother has C++ for dummies but I'm not sure if thats the best one...
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post #13 of 23
7/1/05 at 7:03pm
The whole point of Java is to be portable.

Any machine with a good cpu and alot of RAM should do you just fine.
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post #14 of 23
7/1/05 at 7:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by James S.
Most of the AMD 64 notebooks I have found seem limited to 1GB.
Every Single A64 notebook on the market right now, from the major OEMs have a max capacity of 2GB. Even though some, such as my own, advertises as 1.25GB max, is due to a 256MB module in the internal slot, which could be swapped for 1GB, along with the user-accessible slot to be 2GB total.
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post #15 of 23
7/1/05 at 7:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetrismaster
I know this is kind off off-topic... but I'll be taking a C++ course this fall and I want to get a head start in the summer. What is a good book I could use to teach myself? My brother has C++ for dummies but I'm not sure if thats the best one...
I would first take a look at the digital version of Thinking in C++. You can download it for free at http://mindview.net/Books/TICPP/ThinkingInCPP2e.html (if you like it, you should buy the paperback version). The issue with it will be that the author assumes you are familiar with C or a language that is similar. I learned C++ from the first edition back in the mid-90's, and thought it was excellent.

If after looking at it you feel it is not the right text for you, I think I'd ask the instructor of your C++ course and find out the text they will be using for the class. No sense buying more books than is necessary. Or find out from the bookstore what text the instructor ordered for the course.

If you can't find that out, then something like Sams Teach Yourself C++ in 21 Days work (The dummies book isn't rated well at Amazon; this has a much better rating). Normally I wouldn't suggest a "Dummies", "KISS", or "... in XX days" type book, but because you are just trying to get a head start, a crash course style book would work in your case. You'll pick up the basics, and refine your knowledge during the actual course.

Eventually, if you are going to be using C++ day in, day out, you will probably want to pick up The C++ Programming Language by Bjorne Stroustrop. It is a reference text though, and I would not suggest trying to learn the basics of the language from it (unless you have a radically different way of learning than I do).

My $0.02 cents. Good luck!
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post #16 of 23
7/1/05 at 7:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetrismaster
I know this is kind off off-topic... but I'll be taking a C++ course this fall and I want to get a head start in the summer. What is a good book I could use to teach myself? My brother has C++ for dummies but I'm not sure if thats the best one...
For the first step, I would recommend getting an Unix based OS, and run gcc; instead of the MS suite. MS Visual Studio, while somewhat user friendly, is really a b*tch to use in terms of certain types of compiles and debugs. Something like Sun Solaris would be the best, but for a laptop, you might look into dual booting 64-bit Fedora, and some version of Windows.
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post #17 of 23
7/1/05 at 7:42pm
I agree with Hardball on your development setup; the MS stuff practically DEMANDS you use their IDE, and that distracts you from learning the language, and more importantly, how to program in general. Once you've got the mentality of programming down, and the basics of the language understood, learning a particular IDE is not a major issue.

Figuring out how to install and run Linux may be an additional overhead as well. Perhaps installing and using gcc under Cygwin would be a good compromise.

If you are going to use the MS software, use the command line compiler instead of the IDE. You will be much better off if you do.
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post #18 of 23
7/1/05 at 8:08pm
I dont know I have found IDEs to be nice.

If all you are looking for is a command window you can do it that way in windows as well as unix.

Dont get me wrong Unix is great but if you are new to programing and Unix it might be a little daunting.

anyway, If you start out with the basics of structured programing any of the major published books should be ok.

Personally I have always been a fan of the Deitel/Deitel books.
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post #19 of 23
7/2/05 at 1:13am
I really like IDEs as well; but when you are first learning to program they are more of a distraction than a benefit. Plus when you add things in like autocomplete and all the other nifty features, beginners become reliant upon them. Learn the language and techniques first; then the IDE becomes a valuable tool instead of a crutch.

The Deitel/Deitel books are ok; I would not be suprised if it is the text the instructor uses. Personally, I think they are too verbose, but I'm a meat and potatoes kind of guy.

Funny you should mention structured programming; when I was a lab assistant for my CS department, they had just switched to teaching C++ from Pascal, but the instructor wanted to start straight away with OO principles. It overwhelmed quite a few people in the course (lots of math & biology majors). I actually think it is better to learn structured programming before trying to learn OO concepts. You CAN do that with C++ , since it can be used as a "better" C. Might not be a bad idea to pick up a book on C and learn it first, then use the Thinking in C++ book, which was written with the purpose of teaching C++ and the basics of OO development to structured programmers.
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post #20 of 23
7/2/05 at 1:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smyttie
I really like IDEs as well; but when you are first learning to program they are more of a distraction than a benefit. Plus when you add things in like autocomplete and all the other nifty features, beginners become reliant upon them. Learn the language and techniques first; then the IDE becomes a valuable tool instead of a crutch.

The Deitel/Deitel books are ok; I would not be suprised if it is the text the instructor uses. Personally, I think they are too verbose, but I'm a meat and potatoes kind of guy.

Funny you should mention structured programming; when I was a lab assistant for my CS department, they had just switched to teaching C++ from Pascal, but the instructor wanted to start straight away with OO principles. It overwhelmed quite a few people in the course (lots of math & biology majors). I actually think it is better to learn structured programming before trying to learn OO concepts. You CAN do that with C++ , since it can be used as a "better" C. Might not be a bad idea to pick up a book on C and learn it first, then use the Thinking in C++ book, which was written with the purpose of teaching C++ and the basics of OO development to structured programmers.

Nice post.

I agree for the most part. I was a Unix Admin before heading back to school and I found alot of people had a hard time with the OS. So if your just looking to get started in C++ you can do it as easily with notepad and a command window as you can in Unix, if you load a decent compiler.

If you know Unix then by all means but I think it would be a bit of a distraction to teach your self both in a summer. But if you think your up to it dont let me stop you.

Personally I have always felt that if you dont learn structured first then you OO code will be lacking. using both gives clean efficient code. At some point you need to use For() loops and Switch Statements.

Your right that the Dietel books are a bit verbose but thats a good thing when your learning. Personally I just use a reference manual now a days.
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