Man in Florida arrested who was using unauthorized Wi-Fi - Page 3

I think at least part of the problem is that prosecutors, judges, etc. are technologically incompetent. They really have no clue of how the system works even after having it thoroughly explained to them. All they know is that something that supposedly belonged to "Bob" was being used by "Joe", even though they can't get their heads around the fact that no resources, productivity or experience was lost. Now if he was using this connection for illegal activities such as cracking or identity theft, that would be another story -- but, for all we know, he could have been looking for a new pair of socks at Sears.

I watched a court show once where a computer repair technician was being sued by an incompitent user (I don't think I need to explain that one any further ). Guess what? The user won, simply because the judge couldn't wrap her fancy-law-words-filled head around the nature of the business, which sometimes just can't be explained - only the ones in the business can fully appreciate and understand it. It's just the way it is!

I think the problem with understanding why "sharing" or "stealing" software or bandwidth technology differs from "stealing" a physical object is because the resources and quantities are a lot less finite - the example here being Wi-Fi. Three connections to a Wi-Fi router instead of two is going to make no difference in bandwidth and performance.

Secondly, why was the owner of the Wi-Fi router not considered responsible? If you left your car running and unlocked in a poorly-lit area in a bad neighborhood, do you think your insurance company is gonna do jack-squat for you when your car is stolen? In fact, you might be charged with fraud for something like that.

I'd rant more, but I have too many thoughts stuffed in my brain right now that the function sending the signal to my fingers is shutting down...

I still say the guy was not stealing....Its not like I took the signal and routed it so you could not use it, then im stealing,,,You are putting out a signal for everybody to access and if you dont protect it then its not stealing...


NOT STEALING< NOT GUILTY!

seablade marks a point here.

the company(the broadcaster sent me his name on my laptop.
the name of the shop.

This is advertising, (I didnt ask him to send me advertisings, can I sue him ?)

I am preparing my defense. I will join:

- copies of how to encript the wifi.
-copies of WILAN detector I have found in a tech magazine
-2 copies of WIFI contacts showing one wih the locker and one with no locker...
- a letter from my part explaining these keypoints: responsability of the broadcaster, way to encrypt his line, call phone from the telecom company teling me I was right to make opposition, avertising poping up on my PC.


anything you can find on line could help me. Seabalde do you have something about this advertising?

You can write me to johnhamler@yahoo.com

you can help me in my defense by writing something if you wish(kind of petition).I will join all this in a mail next week.

While I sympathize with your position, I think in reality, the situation is a bit different than you described it to be. Most people don't pay for bandwidth, they pay for an account where use is unmetered. It's not like a person can't use their account while someone else accesses it, the question is one of available bandwidth. Most people don't use their full BW availability very often, so there is plenty of BW available for use on most accounts most of the time. However, if the owner wants full use of their network, or doesn't want individuals to access their network, then that of course needs to be respected.

I don't own a wifi router myself but I imagine that software makes it a simple matter to individually block connections in the case that an owner doesn't want individuals to access their network. Therefore, if network access is openly available, it would be reasonable to assume that the owner doesn't mind if someone else uses their network (assuming they do not do anything that is itself illegal using that network).

That would make the technology itself illegal. I think you'd be wasting your time.

I have a VHF license, which gives me the right to use radio in planes,...
I am sure I can not sue a guy because he is listening me with his radio receptor.
Some websites give you access to cockpit conversations (live ATC), it would be crazy that someone sue you to listen pilots....

I am convinced that people is reponsible of their own broadcasting, TV, Radio, amator radio, ...
why would it be different for WIFI.???

I have a VHF license, which gives me the right to use radio in planes,...
I am sure I can not sue a guy because he is listening me with his radio receptor.
Some websites give you access to cockpit conversations (live ATC), it would be crazy that someone sue you to listen pilots....

I am convinced that people is reponsible of their own broadcasting, TV, Radio, amator radio, ...
why would it be different for WIFI.???

you now, guys, this could happen to you too.
You go in a bookstore (borders,...) with your laptop. You have a paper to write for your school, and then suddenly u see an internet signal on your laptop. so u say:"cool, I am going to check my email". 20 minutes later, FBI and cops come to you, handcuff,...then in the police station. "what did you do, who are you, explain to me now..."

You're a good debater Jamiam.

I have the problem solved. I don´t use Wi-Fi at home, everything is wired.

Still, several Government agencies don´t use Wi-Fi in their buildings because they are aware that even though they may encrypt the signal somebody may be able to hack it and gain access to stuff they´re not supposed to see.

I agree though that if you don´t secure your network you´re just asking for somebody else to access it and its no one else´s fault but yours.

If you don´t read the freakin manual (which not many people do) and ignore the safety precautions provided in it you´re asking for trouble.

I also think in part that it is the manufacturing companies´ fault because they market WiFi as easy to use. Indeed it is easy to use but the provided wizards on set up software just let you make a network quick and easy broadcasting signal everywhere and letting in everything that wants to connect to it to make setup easier.

For non advanced users I think they should provide an easy way in wizards to add some encryption or MAC address filtering to prevent stuff like this from happening.

My $0.02

Here is my problem with this case... I have my laptop set to automatically use the best signal it receives... I am sitting on my porch replying to e-mails... my neighbors signal at this spot on MY porch is stronger... I miss the little pop up message saying that I using a new signal... should I now be arrested for accessing someone elses network? According to this case, and the current statutes, yes, I could be arrested and charged with a 3rd degree felony, all because my neighbor decided against encrypting their network. Imagine this same situation in an apartment complex. Imagine how many people are setting up their own access with out encrypting signals. I checked here in my apartment... there are 15 signals that are strong enough for me to connect to, and 4 of them are not encrypted.

Well yes and no...

Understand I am not a law person, I just tend to try to keep an eye on the law because it benefits me to do so. In particular because I do computers for a hobby I tend to watch technological laws, and because I work in pyrotechnics, audio, and one of many other various aspects of backstage theater, I tend to keep a close eye on those as well for my own good. Most contractors will tell you the same thing I would imagine.

Anyways on to that topic at hand, the advertisement, can you go into a little more detail on this? This one point could possibly make or break your case. I say possibly because there are of course other avenues to take you havent covered yet, which I will get to in a moment...

When you say they broadcast their Name onto your laptop, are yoiu just refering to in your wireless connection, or are you referring to they broadcast a Pop-Up ad or the like? If it is the second then that shows that they are using it as a means for advertisement to reach an audience, and on top of that they would be taking advatage of security problems in your OS to do so. That could concievably make your case IMO, but more information is required for that.

However if they are just having their name show up in your wireless connection than if anything that may hurt you. The reason is chances are it is being broadcast as a signal identifier, and could allow them to say you knew where the signal originated from and could have(And yes probably should have but that is another topic) asked if it was free to use.

ALl that being said, things that can be done in your defense in my opinion....

Try to illustrate the difference, or lack thereof, or a public hotspot being run out of a house or restaurant, vs a unencrypted signal being run out of said store. As you can imagine there is almost no difference on the laptop outside of the network name, which will in fact change from hotspot to hotspot.

If you can try to research some the the hotspots in various restaurants(Galveston Texas for example I know some restaurants use the Hotspots as advertising points to get more people to come into their store, so they provide free internet so you can work and eat there at the same time, this was the area I mentioned above) and see if you can get the network identifiers. I believe in Galveston because those particular restaurants are doing so as part of a internet solution being provided by a different company it is all in that companies name I believe, but am not sure. But at any rate how are you to know those are public hotspots or not? Some stores have wifi advertising true, others may not.

The point I am trying to make(Again I am no Lawyer) is ther is no good way to determine what is public access unencrypted networks anyone can, and does, join, versus what is a unencrypted Private network that looks the EXACT same and takes absolutely no more effort than the public networks to join.

Going into the broadcaster's responsibility of encryption is an entire nother argument and a good one to have on hand, good thinking getting the ISP documentation on that. If you can try to get documentation from more than one ISP on that, the more widespread acceptance of that appears to be the better for you, public opinion even though it shouldnt, has a huge effect on the outcome of cases, and what is considered common practice might be rather useful to you.

Again throughout all of this, keep in mind, I am not a lawyer, this is all opinion based on what I have seen and know, but I do not study law, I just keep an eye on it to protect myself. If you know one(A lawyer) it might not be a bad idea to see one, especially if we are talking about felony charges here(Not sure if that is the case in your case or not) and if you cant afford one and can prove that make sure to present that to the court, they may assign you one(Again boundry of my legal knowledge there, but I believe it is in the miranda rights?, thankfully I have not had to listen to them for some time, so it is possible I am wrong.

Seablade

PS If the government broadcasts top secret information over the unencrypted radio on accident, is it illegal for someone else to listen in by accident? Especially if we are talking radio accidents can happen That example is a bit extreme, but other things happen, corporate information given out on accident etc.

Also one other thing to consider, yes it is the responsibility of the broadcaster, but that also comes back, you are a braodcaster as well when using Wi-Fi, you are recieving the signal and are transmitting requests for other signals. So in effect you are also broadcasting. I hate to say it but it is true, and until they more clearly spell out the law it will still hold true... To put it in terms of VHF radio since you mentioned it...

If I was to broadcast on the channels used for weather braodcasts and request certain information... 1 It wouldnt do a lot of good, but 2 It is still me doing the illegal act. Same thing with Channel 22(I am a sailor not a pilot, but that is for the USCG on the water I am sure you have similar on the air) It is my responsibility as a license holder to not break those rules, and it is my responsibility if I dont have a license not to use a radio(Again on the water that happens a LOT)

All that being said, if they dont want anyone else to listten in on their broadcast they should encrypt it, or tell their router to ignore all Mac Addresses except their own at the least(Similar to how the weather channels would ignore me if I broadcast on them). If I broadcast on the USCG channel I am borrowing from their air, which is kept public for a reason to broadcast and hold my own conversation, and believe me, they will get pissed at you for doing so and if tyhey can come after you if you refuse to stop(Remember what I said about non-license holders not using a radio? Yep goota love stupid people

But at any rate there is a difference between VHF radio and Wireless networks in that VHF doesnt require a central station to broadcast where the network does and can be regulated MUCH easier.(Peer to peer networks are a bit different and are a different boat, heck bluetooth mobile phone(And other devices) networks would be hell trying to enforce something like that on)

Seablade

well, the guy didnt put any advertisings, I was talking about his connection name which was clearly indicated on my screen(like adidas by exemple).
I consider this as an invitation to be connected.
then on the botom of my screen, I have seen the 2-3 green reception strips. I had just to click on my internet explorer and the yahoo.com web page appeared.(and bingo, I became a criminal). in fact, it was a question of one click.I can even say that when someone send a wifi signal and you have already one wifi at home , the PC catches the strongest one.in this case you could sue the broadcaster to monopolise his own wifi by cancelling your own WIFI.

I have mentioned several time the responsability of the broadcaster,yes, I am broadcasting too, but my laptop is not connected to an adsl line.so the "master" is the broadcaster, can I say I am the "server"?.

I do not want to enter to much in details with the court, because, I consider this is the responsability of the telecom (FCC...), intel, PC sellers,....

if I come with ISP, and all these technique wordings, they will think I try to make turn the judge crazy....
so far this plaint will go to the penal institution, then I think if it goes further, a judge will take this further.It can go to the highest level of justice like in the USA, but I personaly think, it is going to be a non-lieu!.(I mean, case closed!!!)


@echopapa:

well, in my appart, too, I receive some open internets.sometimes they disapear, or sometimes they are open, then the next months, they have a key.
you can be charged for 3 rd degree felony, but base on what?
this is what happened to me.I have been charged but I plaid no guilty by making full opposition (we dont have this guilty/non guilty thing in europe)

this is what we are all talking about cuz no law say anything about that.
you can be accused of stealing internet, but under which law. it doesnt mean because someone sue you, that you are a criminal.So dont worry to much about that!as long you are in your home, nobody can see you anyway.

in my point of view you can use your free internet connection...I know you do it already because you are in your own appartment , and every signal passing your door, can be used.it is very tempting , no???
and I know all kids who have laptops at home try to get a free hotspot by placing their laptop close of window or in their garden.

Maybe your neighboor are willing to share their system. if his name is indicated on your PC, why not to give him a call and ask him to share his connection.maybe give him 10 bucks a month(against a receipt to avoid problem later)
At this time of writing this, I am on an open unprotected connection at my father's house.I have installed myself the system.what' s the point to put a key? having a public open free hotspot reduces only the speed when several computers are on the same system...we have the system installed for 9 months now, and we have not been perturbated.

I am pleased to see that this topic has received 52 replies already and visited 1500 times.

I would like to know if this Mr Smith, is on this forum too.

damn guys, I just realized that I am a multicriminal now! 2 other lines came on my laptop just by walking in my garden(100ft long). weak signal, but open signal.My laptop says:"other signal has been detected and can perturbe yours, for this only one stay active" well I gueess, it locks on the strongest WIFI.(my WIFI), but would happen if your laptop locks on the signal which come first , and it is not yours?

u enter in your computer room, you switch on you pc , and not your adsl, and bingo you have the internet from your neighboors.....you think you are on your own wifi, and then 2 hours laters after surfing the net, you ask yourself" strange, I have the internet and I didnt switch my ADSL"!!!!

then the FBI, CIA enter violently in you room, "knee on the floor, don move,"handcuff, bla bla bla....doesnt sound like Waco????


(sorry for my bad english, not my first language)

Can someone give me a link to a FREE hotspot.i have checked with MC donald, they are working with another company who charge you hell through credit card....
I will make a copy of my screen and send as an exemple.

thanks

If the government broadcasts top secret information over unencrypted radio on accident that will be their problem. To err is human.

In that case, there are laws in the US that specify that although you may listen to transmissions sent over the air (for example using a radio frequency scanner) divulging or using such information is not legal.

Way to go. It appears you know nothing about computer law either. You used a computer network which you were not authorized to use plain and simple. It does not matter whether the connection was encrypted or not it was not yours to use and you comitted a crime by using it.


BTW, you are very naive for thinking that because the signal is there that it's free. It is even dumber that you further comitted computer crimes while in the custody of police and then admitted to it on a public forum.

Have fun in jail.

well beakmyn, you seem to be very well informed, and what about free hotspots? I think you are the naive man...or the technician in my area is naive too.
i dont know if you read all my posts, one of the technician who sell WIFI told me I was damn right...it is the biggest company in my country and they have received several complaints like this.if I was wrong, i think the guy would have told me to stop ASAP, but no, he told me:"the other guy is an incompetent, he had just to put a key..."

sure I dont know lot of things about PC like millions of people who buy a laptop and use internet in town.
and what about all these people driving in their VAN and plotting maps of all open connection in their area?

Are you joking?so far I didnt commit any crime.I have been accused by a dumb idiot who broadcasted illegaly his line in a super market with thousand people all around.
I would have prefered you to come with something to discus than just a "have fun in jail"

I have checked the law here in europe, and the cops did it for me, and there is nothing about that.They do not even talk about wifi or internet connection by air.the cops told me they can not really do anything.

this is so new here, that they will have soon to make some new laws.

I think if I was trying to crack codes , it would have been different.
I think I am right to share this story with you, more and more people could be in problem later,...

I dont know how many people have read this post, but none was able to give me a straight answer.

so will I be guilty or non guilty?

Way to go yourself. People were having a sensible debate on whether using unencrypted WiFi signals was illegal or not until you posted your patronising remarks.

@johnhamler: Good luck with your defence, keep us informed of the outcome.

I say pay the fine and don't do it again.

Now you're square with the law and an honorable citizen.

Now having discovered the errors of your ways you should feel obligated to help make your community a safer place to live, by pressing charges against others that are using their wifi indiscriminately / illegally. I would suggest that you get a wifi card for your notebook that has an AP mode, set up a logger and exercise your right to run it wide open. Then go to your nearest airport and start having everyone arrested that connects to it. I'm sure there are plenty of filthy low life that can be caught at the train station, public park, library, hotels and even the court house as well. Hell cops use this method all the time to catch Johns, speeders and car thieves. Its perfectly legal and your civic duty.

Who knows you just might catch a low life judge, policeman, network security expert or other. Your community will probably award with a merit badge for outstanding community service.

That is the think JohnHamler...

I doubt youll get a straight answer on wether you will be guilty or not. The Law is NOT well defined in this area and it is being made at the cost of those that stretch the limits of the current implementation of it.

Unfortunatly being in a foreign country does not mean you can plead your countries laws to protect yourself, that wont hold up in courts of that country.

Seablade